TRANSCRIPT
Peter:
Welcome to unpacking the digital shelf where we explore brand manufacturing in the digital Age. Hey Everyone, Peter Crosby here from the digital shelf Institute, keeping up with the rate of innovation and investment flowing into the retailer ad space is almost an impossible task. So both brands and retailers need to stay focused on building the capabilities to make the right decision, to take greatest advantage of the right opportunities in that space. From her role as managing director of retail media, America's at Criteo, Sherry Smith brings her experience running global media agency triad to the tech space, which gives her a 360 degree view of the ecosystem and best practices in the space. She shared these insights with Rob and me. So Sherry, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. We really appreciate it.
Sherry:
I am thrilled to be here. Absolutely. Thank you.
Peter:
Uh, so retail media, I hear it's, it's kind of on a, on an explosive curve. I've heard everyone gets one. It's the Oprah Winfrey, you get a retail or media platform. You're going to reach over that. Um, and largely because of the innovations of Critio. So I, but I wanted to start before we kind of get to that. I wanted to start kind of, you know, uh, cookies are crumbling. They're they're going away. How does, when you think about, you know, one of the, one of the reasons why retail media is exploding is that retailers can make money off of it. I presume, but there's that second part is if something needs to replace the cookie, um, and, and, uh, and sort of a trustworthy way to get in front of the consumers that you want. And I was wondering how, where you view it, like where does retail and media fit into this post cookie future?
Sherry:
Yeah, I, you know, I mean, I think that post, we, along with data and privacy, you know, are two of the big top topics that we tackle all the time and, you know, the value that that retailer has of their data and being able to look at how their customers are behaving both online and offline, quite honestly, um, hold such value to a marketer. Uh, when you think about how they're planning on placing their funds, um, you know, they've got the quality of the data they can trust. They've got the ability to look at the customer and how he or she, or are behaving on and off the site. And more and more, you know, there's this ability, ability to measure all forms of media. So, you know, post cookies going away, and as brands are thinking about where can I place, where I'm going to trust it, environment that's content, rich data safe, good for brand it's retail.
Rob:
As Peter mentioned at the top, you ran triad for a long while. And triad was one of the original owners of, of one of the key retail media programs, uh, anywhere like at, at Walmart in particular, but, but other places as well. Um, and so triad was one of the early innovators, early innovators in the space, and you've been living it longer than almost anybody. And so, uh, just to start off here, before we go into what's the future and what can brands do and all that type of stuff, what are you seeing right now as the top trends in the retail media landscape and in particular, I'd love your point of view of other than the fact that lots of retailers are getting retail menial programs to what Peter said, macro, what else is happening right now? That's new. That's different from the last, last several years.
Sherry:
Yeah. You know, well, you're right. I mean, they are, retailers are becoming the next media mogul. They, they, they definitely are. And we already talked a little bit about first party data and the value there. So that's, you know, that is to your point of macro trend. Uh, you know, I'd say that the way that retailers are coming together has changed quite a bit. Um, you know, the alignments, the, um, and, and when I say alignment alignment within the merchant organization, alignment with funding, you know, more and more trade funds are shifting over to retailers, uh, uh, better talent, um, you know, coming over to retailers, uh, the focus, uh, within their tech and product organizations on becoming media platforms, the rise of marketplace, you know, as more and more sellers are entering the landscape, we're giving more choices to everyone. Um, you know, budgets, budgets are moving over with that first party data, uh, that we talked about.
Sherry:
Um, it, we're seeing going back to, to talent. You know, I would say from years past when I was at triad versus now where we're at just a theme about major marketers that are moving over to run retailers, you know, I know you guys had interviewed, um, Lou KIBO, uh, at Walgreens, uh, you know, formerly J and J at Albertsons, they've attracted top talent from P and G. You know, Walmart started very early on, um, with top talent from Pepsi. And so, you know, w we're seeing better talent, we're seeing new forms of media monetization, uh, you know, subscription models are certainly on the rise and club. Um, you know, in terms of unique audiences, but also to look at not only that first party data, but, you know, club membership, being able to kind of track and look at the customer. It's just, it's, it's an exciting time to think about not only the data, but that full funnel approach that can be brought to marketers and truly how retailers are coming together to make that happen.
Rob:
Yeah. I mean, one quick way to summarize everything you just said is everything is happening all at one time. It's crazy times another, another one I'll throw on there is the rise of the non retail, but retail media ish places. So you've got the tick talks and Pinterests and Instagrams and Facebooks, all adding checkout capabilities. So are they, are they social? Are they, is that social shopping? I mean, they're acting more as a retailer and they're, and there's obviously advertising systems within there that interact with it. Um, and then there's folks like Instacart, Instacart doesn't own their inventory, and yet they've got a retail media program. And, and so, uh, yeah, I mean, this, it really, it really does feel like an incredible moment in time to be in the midst of what you're in the midst of over at Critio
Sherry:
Now, for sure. And you mentioned Instacart, we work with shift as well as fresh direct. And so, yeah, I'm more of these deliberate and, uh, you know, platforms, um, right. They don't necessarily have a brick and mortar, so to speak, or even a, not even an e-commerce platform, you know, but they've got the value of the data and working with various retailers. So that's a, that's a great call-out for sure.
Peter:
Do you think about, um, the impact of COVID digital becoming the primary growth driver of, of, of business for, for brands? Like, how do you think about this in the context of the existing brick and mortar relationships of retail media that has been going for, I don't know, centuries is too much, but for a long time. And then, um, how does that fit into, to retail media online? Like how, what is the omni-channel story around? Yeah,
Sherry:
That's such a, such a good question. Um, yeah, I mean, to your point, when you look at some of the, the delivery, the delivery sector with like an Instacart or a shift or a fresh direct, you know, they're partnering with these retailers and offering services that these retailers just can't. So I, you know, Rob said very early on, it's like, it's all happening at once. And so, you know, it is going to be these forms of partnership that are going to be able to, they need to be formed to meet the need of the customer. You know, the customer is changing so rapidly in terms of how they shop that was, you know, in part because of this past year, but, but just in general, you know, as the, as the customer becomes more and more Saudi. And so retailers are having to adapt very quickly, as budgets are shifting more and more, and, um, be ready to take in those advertising dollars. And, you know, some of that's on their own, some of that is going to be through acquisitions and that's going to be through. And, um, you know, I think that's what we're seeing in the example of, you know, delivery, uh, is some really smart partnerships to bring them to where they need to be.
Peter:
Yeah. Tech, uh, often, you know, technology doesn't solve the process and people problems. And it, you were talking about earlier, they're really starting to solve the people problem by getting, you know, sort of heavy hitters into to manage these things. Are you also seeing them fix, uh, the process problems to be able to actually, cause I imagine that's a big deal to all of a sudden become, uh, you know, an, a platform.
Sherry:
Yeah. I, you know, I, I think that it all starts with alignment internally and what we're seeing. So one of the trends I'm seeing more and more is retail media used to sit at either sat with a merchant or it's that with digital within the digital umbrella, but as retailers are looking to become media platforms or the next media moguls, so to speak, um, and there's the realization of what it takes to become to really, to monetize and to become a media platform and the importance of it, you know, the importance of being good stewards of the data, the importance of, of what this could mean for, or retail on terms of revenue. Um, it's sitting underneath the CEO or the CMO, you know, as it's moving. And, um, and that's exciting because of course, along with that kind of top down, you're going to get, you're going to get more leadership, um, and more, uh, alignment, um, to, to truly build and go fast.
Sherry:
And so I think that that is first and foremost, some of the biggest change that we're seeing is where it's sitting within the organization and what that means in terms of aligning, whether it is again, back to product tech, what's focused on first and foremost. I mean, I remember a long, long time ago, uh, retail media always fell below the line in terms of, we were last, last in the last, in the shuffle in terms of, you know, um, some of the needs, uh, to build a monetization program. And now it's, you know, it's at the very top. That's exciting.
Rob:
It's interesting. You say that we were Peter and I on, um, uh, digital self Institute, exec forum call earlier today in which the, the point was made that from a brain manufacturing executive perspective, the retail media teams within most of the major retailers, um, I, Amazon aside don't feel as if they are a top three retailer priority. So you look at what this speed of the retailer is talking about. They're not talking about retail media, they're talking about a lot of other things. Um, and to the extent that they are talking about retail media, they see it as easy dollars like Amazon, you know, Amazon is a $30 billion run rate, uh, media business. Now it's high margin. Uh, we should get some of those dollars, you know, w somebody on your team can do an ad platform and do retail media. You know,
Peter:
It's funny, I'm looking at Sherri's face and Sherry, tell me if I'm misreading it, but there's like a skepticism. They're like, that's not how you want to think about this, but that's
Rob:
Kind of the interesting thing. So that's why I bring this up is because the perception is that for, for a bunch of these retailers, it's, it looks like easy muddy, and it looks easy to do and, you know, just put some people on it. Um, and, uh, and I was, I was kind of surprised to hear that comment, but I also, other than other than Luke and a couple others, I'm not close enough to these, to these companies to actually call BS on it or not. You know what I mean?
Sherry:
Yeah, yeah, no, you know, um, I, it, it's interesting, even as you kind of see, who's like, Hey, we're the next, uh, media platform everyone's announcing, but retailers that are announcing, they've been doing it for 5, 7, 10 years, you know, but it's just now, you know, they've gotten to a point they've gotten to a level of maturity or, you know, the, again, the alignment, the leadership approach that they're really ready to go fast, fast. It there's a lot, there's a lot that goes into it. It starts with alignment, but, you know, tech is such a big piece and, uh, making, uh, the media, uh, not only easy to buy, but effective. And, um, you know, that, that, that takes on several forms, you know, as, as you, as you kind of look at the various types of monetization opportunities that you can bring to a retailer, you know, we already talked about talent.
Sherry:
Uh, those are the three core areas. And then as you drill down on each, it takes it, it takes, it takes time, uh, to develop something we're really well-rounded. And I'd say coupled with that, uh, even with the right alignment, you know, that's a lot of change management within an organization. Um, you think about, you know, something that's been very merchant heavy on merchant, one with trade dollars and those dollars moving over, it's it requires some step change to get there. So, so, you know, tech aside alignment and talent aside, um, there's a lot of change management in this too. It's not just, you can't just pick up one day and decide I'm going to be immediate the platform by, by far that's, that's a stretch, but, you know, I, I would say that all that being said, we've come such a long way. And I think that there's a lot of blueprints out there for who's doing it really well. And, um, you know, we're just really, I've been in this space for 15 years. We're just now getting started.
Peter:
Sherry, can you just talk a little bit more about alignment because I agree with you, but I think some specificity on that would help our, our listeners. W w where are you finding, you know, obviously not giving away any secrets, but where are you finding the misalignments exist that need to be put into place for someone to be successful?
Sherry:
You know, I think that, um, I'll give you a really good example that we still hear today. You know, when you think about you walk into a store, let us talk about brick and mortar first, and I'll translate that to online. You walk into a store and, you know, that shelf is run by the buyers and the, the store managers and, uh, you know, that are, are getting that store ready, um, you know, for, for the customers to shop and, um, that's their space. Um, and, and I think that online is approached very much that same way when it comes to thinking about the inventory that's available on the site, you know, um, and, um, and the data, the customer, um, making sure that, um, any sort of advertising is being additive to that the customers are they're being cared for their data, is being cared for.
Sherry:
And that at the end of the day, that's translating into a very good shopping experience that's right for their customer or their member, if you're a club and that it's translating into a sale. And, um, there's a lot of education, as well as testing that goes on to make sure that those, all of those, um, key priorities are not being hindered in any way, but are being added to. So that's an example of alignment. There, there, there are others, but that's an example of, uh, making sure that you take the retailer for the e-comm website, um, on that journey. Uh, so that, so that there, isn't a fear that, um, you know, this is, this is about the monetization and not about the customer. The customer has to be at the root of it, Sherry
Rob:
On the topic of change management. I think one area that's interesting to think about is how a retailer sets expectations on revenue from this, but is it simply that they're protecting their existing trade revenue? So brands are increasingly saying, look, I can't measure this co-op thing. It's, it's a, it feels like a black hole. I'm throwing it in, but with Amazon or with Walmart, I can measure the ROI. And so if you want me to pay co-op, I mean, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta help me out. And so some of it is potentially defensive where a retailer who's got a retail media program can, can defend their existing trade dollars coming in from the brands from going to another retailer like Amazon. Right. Um, and then, so, so I wonder how much of it is when, when they, when they justify it, they say, we have to do this because we have to defend our existing money versus we have to do this because this is just a giant booming market.
Rob:
And, you know, we're going to have like a large number that we're going to put on. Um, and, and the truth is, is probably always mixed with, with the two of those. But, but, but in either case, a lot of, a lot of the, you know, if you're the 10th or 15th or 20th retailer to have a retail media program in north America, for example, uh, brands are kind of tapped out. And so all of a sudden, you know, they've got the ask from Amazon, they got the asked from Walmart, they got the from target, they got the from Instacart. And then all of a sudden, you know, you're, you're coming at there as the 20th largest retailer, 25th largest retailer, you say, Hey, I've got to do retail media program to throw some money my way. It might take a while for the money to, to be spread equitably on some level. Right. And, and so if you're thinking about the dollars and cents of the program, how much, how much alignment is there in expectation setting and financial plan, reality check, setting, and understanding the competitive environment and all that. I mean, that seems like it's gotta be, it's gotta be at the heart of difficult with, for, for, for these companies that are watching it.
Sherry:
Yeah. I mean, you know, I think there are a few big retailers that can do what they're doing and that's, you know, a lot of them are already doing it today. Here, it's Amazon, it's Walmart, it's Instacart. Kroger's doing a great job, uh, target of course. Uh, you know, they're, I I'd say probably the top 10, top 25, um, have an opportunity to capture more fair share, but I want to answer that, you know, maybe a little bit differently. I think that when a retailer is looking at media monetization opportunities, I don't think it's necessarily starting with trade or at least not right now, although I do think they need to protect and defend their space. And, you know, there is more of a shift there's less foot traffic in store. There's more going to online. They have to think about how that translates into trade.
Sherry:
I think that when it comes to retail media, uh, there's an opportunity. Yes, of course, with, you know, third-party cookies going away with Amazon hitting 14 billion last year, um, uh, to capture those awareness, budgets, those, you know, search budgets, um, and really thinking about agency dollars that if you can, can make it a, build it in such a way that is easily accessible, um, because you're right. Are marketers going to go on and log into, you know, 25 different platforms now, no one has the time that's not operationally efficient. You know, we're very, very focused on, uh, you know, Critio the open ecosystem. You know, we, we, we see an opportunity to make retail media buying accessible and easy, uh, within one platform and, you know, still very siloed for the retailer to a degree, but, but one entry point for, for brands and marketers to spend those dollars in funnel those dollars.
Sherry:
And with that, yes, of course, trade can be a part of that too. As a retailer gets more and more, um, familiar with and better alignment internally more can shift. It doesn't happen overnight. So, Rob, just to answer your question, what we always try to present is what is your total opportunity and what are the steps to get you there? And what does that look like? You're over here. We never want to go in, or when anyone want to go in and say, okay, you know, uh, you know, they want to have that, that, that build whether it's the tech in the marketing materials, the talent and the revenue associated with it. And, um, and so that goes back to some that change management and that, that stair-step of how do you get there? Um, and you know, again, when you think about Amazon or Walmart, or even target all three have been in the retail media space for more than 10 years, all three of them, you know, and they are where they are as a result now, is it going to go faster for more retailers now? Yes. Likely so, but, um, it, that said it still takes time
Peter:
And share. You've talked about a lot of what you were just focusing on is sort of enabling the ease of it. So that for brands it's possible to play at, at scale, or at some scale, um, in a, in a more efficient way, the second part that you were talking about is effectiveness. Um, how, how do brands do all these tests and learn attempts, figure out where it's paying off, how to scale it. Um, and, and what does that monitoring take to be able to make those calls and, and is, is your firm a part of that process?
Sherry:
You know, I mean, I think that right now so much that's being measured kind of consistently across or sponsored product ads. You know, it's, it's easy, it's online. You can look at, you know, the return on ad spend and I'd say that's, that's the most mature, uh, I think as, as, uh, the forms of like display, um, as well as, um, offsite, even looking at online, offline data, um, making that better accessible via the way that media is actually tracked and measured is going to continue to change. That's one of the things I see for the future. I think that, you know, um, looking at the digital shelf, um, being able to measure and effectively see how is the shelf converting? I think that's a big opportunity for marketers as well. And what that translates to in terms of their media, um, content, um, is, is, is king for sure. Online. Um, so that is one to measure as well. So I don't, I don't think that we're there. Um, I think we're still quite a ways off, um, you know, certain, I guess, tactics, so to speak, if you will, are more mature than, um, in terms of how to measure. Yeah.
Peter:
We were talking today, uh, to a future guest on the podcast that I give away who it is, but he's been in the digital shelf agency business for, and it has been for a long time. And he was saying, one thing to remember about this is that it can seem for a brand like, oh, I go spend money on ads, kind of a easy way to spend your money. And you can see people coming in and you're like, that's working, I'm gonna do more of that. But he was saying, you know, if you have two brands that are spending exactly the same on media, but only one of them is really spending what it takes to make sure that they drive, that they double their conversion rate on their brand page. That brand ends up with, you know, essentially twice the reading retail media budget. Cause they're converting more customers on the page. So you can't just think about this as an acquisition. It's like, then how are you following through in the rest of the experience or else you've just kind of wasted your money?
Sherry:
Absolutely, absolutely. There's such an art to it. I mean, and again, as you look at it and that's the digital shelf, I mean, I'd say the same applies with sponsor products and looking at how are you optimizing, you know, how are you bidding? Uh, what does that return look like? Uh, talent is equally important. I would say in that, you know, within the, on the brand and the agency side, um, you know, or anyone that has hands on keyboard, you know, and, um, experience of course. So, yeah,
Rob:
I don't have a curve ball here, but historically in the U S for almost a hundred years, the percentage of GDP spent on advertising was around like 1.2, give her give or take. And in 2008, that changed that. So the percentage of GDP spent on advertising is in the 0.7, 5.8 range right now. So it's, it's a giant drop of percentage of GDP spent on advertising. It's actually been durable. The last I'll ask, you know, basically since 2008. Um, and, and that's a, that's a major change in, in, in the market and the rise of Amazon and the rise of, uh, the retail media, generally speaking, hasn't shifted the percentage of GDP in advertising appreciably. And so there's a piece of me that wonders. I've asked a few people this just to try to get different opinions on it, does something like retail media, which has such easy to measure ROI.
Rob:
And given the fact that there's only a few retailers that have a mature retail media program, it feels like there's just a tremendous opportunity to grow it. Is it a expansive play for advertising in general? Do we see net more dollars going into advertising over the next few years than have gone into advertisement last few years, or as more of these top 20 retailers turn on meaningful retail media programs? Are we going to just necessarily see and, uh, trade dollars moving? So you move from co-op to retail media, you moved from, from TV to retail media. And w which of those do you think is, is going to be more of the story?
Sherry:
That's a, that's a really great question. Um, I do think it's going to have an impact on advertising, um, dollars, uh, flowing and growing. Um, I do, I, I, I think that, and again, just, just with what we've gone through this past year, with the way customers are shopping with, you know, pick up in store, I think even the way marketers are viewing online media, you know, there was such a cheque, a separation of online and in store, you know, but now it's, it's being viewed more holistically. And again, I think with the changes of 20, 22 that's to come to the dollars have to go somewhere. Um, and I, I do think that, um, advertising and specifically, you know, in this space is going to continue to grow. I think that trade will be a part of it. I think that's further off. I think we're actually further behind there. You know, I think that's just getting started. Um, I don't have a number to put on it, which it is, you know, in terms of what, what I think, but I think we're going to see the influence of both, but, but, um, but I do think that we'll see advertising pickup post 2022, um, and, um, dollars continue to flow. So hopefully, I don't know if that answers your questions entirely related to take that too far off track, but kinda my, my view.
Rob:
Yeah, I had, I I'll tell you, I don't have any does, obviously not that's something anybody can have the answer to, I don't have the answer to it. Um, I think just based on my conversations with brands and, and, and with retailers, everyone's feeling margin pressure and they're feeling margin pressure because the switch to digital shelf is, you know, if you keep the same price points, it's margin destructive, right? Because all of a sudden you've got to pay for fulfillment types that are, whether you're picking and packing, uh, each is instead of pallets, um, or, or whether you're, uh, having to ship instead of, you know what I mean? Like, there's just like a lot there's whether you've got to manage a larger assortment, whether you've got to manage different types of, um, additional costs such as paying door dash fees or, or, you know, giving Instacart a cut, or like, this is just a thousand, it was like a thousand additional costs that are all in the pie somewhere.
Rob:
Um, and folks are struggling with it. Right. And I mean, just recently, I, uh, I saw some data that showed that the margins on D to C for a lot of the major brands are worse than the margins through Walmart, which is crazy, you know, cause, and it's, and it's not because of anything else other than just standing up a D to C strategy in terms of how you do fulfillment in terms of the media that you have to spend to get people to your DTC website to begin with and all, and in terms of technology to run the website and the team to run the website, it's just, it's, it's all cost additive, but it's not, it's not volume additive. Like all the volume that used to go through the brick is now spread out from a few channels and managed and having to support a few channels is more expensive than just having to support brick.
Rob:
So there there's a piece of me that thinks retail media is a better mouse trap than TV, for example. And what's what I think is more likely to happen rather than the flow and grow. As you said, rather than more net dollars going into advertising is that the dollars are going to move around within advertising and they'll move, they'll move from TV, they'll move from trade they'll, move from co-op, you know, and are various things like that, um, to, to try to keep the operating margin, you know, from get taking a beating any, any more than it than it already has to. That's kinda, that's my guess. I might be, there might be a, too much of a short-term ism view, but that's, that's kind of where my current head is
Sherry:
At. No, I think it's, uh, I think it's, uh, they're all very good points. Um, yeah, it'll be, it'll be interesting to see certainly where things continue to, to shift, um, you know, especially as we come out of this year, this, this, this challenging year, you know, and just continue to change
Peter:
You, you talked at the top of the show about brand,
Sherry:
You know, I think that trust is not really something that, that we're typically, um, coming across and we're talking to brands and, and with marketers because, you know, the retailer typically, you know, always is putting the, that, that customer first and the content there is meant to be additive and to help with the shopping experience. And, you know, retailers will never, they will always prioritize that customer and that, that sale over a large media buy. Um, and, and, and so, I mean, I think when you think about the environment where your advertising would be placed, you know, you can trust marketers trust that it's going to be in an environment that, you know, the customer is there for a reason they are familiar with, they trust the quality it's personalized, you know, for the most part to that customer. Um, and, and again, it's additive to the experience. And so, um, I'd say more than anything where we, where we spend our time is, is more so helping the retailer be comfortable with the data security and privacy, because again, they, they want to make sure that as they think about Amenia monetization program, it cannot be the X at the expense of that, their customer's data. Um, and so it's more on the supply side, I would say more on the retailers, less than the brand marketer side, um, where, where we spend a lot of time, um, talking about data, privacy, security, and so on.
Peter:
So final, final question. Um, we've spent a lot of time in each one of the sections that we've talked about. Well, we sort of have said, so we'll see what happens. Like it's all changing so fast, it's all coming at is so, uh, any crystal ball that you've talked about 20, 22, any crystal ball stuff that you want to share with us?
Sherry:
Yeah. I mean, you know, I, you know, if someone said to me today and I think it's absolutely true, I think we're going to see more change happening this next year than in the last 10 years, you know, a lot happened the last 10 years. I mean, you know, you think about how much has happened and, and, and, and just where we're going to be in 2022. So I definitely would love to have this conversation this time next year is as we get a chance to see how much has changed, I think it's going to be an even more rapid pace. Um, I think we're going to see a lot more consolidation in the space is white hot, so more MNA activity, um, more consolidation of tech and services, um, I think is just to be expected when it comes to, you know, the media side more globalization, I think as, as media buying becomes easy and accessible as more and more retailers, you know, we just signed a car for, you know, it's across six different markets.
Sherry:
I, I think it will, you know, start to see agencies, um, as well as brands coming together for, um, global deals. Um, and, um, you know, we, this, we also talked about this a better measurement. Um, you know, as, as we think about how advertising truly is impacting the shopper experience, I think it's really exciting when you think about, uh, the effectiveness of being able to measure online and offline and really see, you know, if you can truly look at all forms of media and, and understand what has that impact. And we talked with the digital shelf, um, it's going to be, uh, I think a marketer's dream just to be able to look at, um, the customer holistically and how that spend impacted. So, um, and that's kind of more, I guess, macro, uh, things that I see, but, um, it's, it's, it's such a busy space and having been in it the last 15 years, I just can't believe how far it's come even in the last year.
Peter:
Yeah. Again, we were having another exact forum conversation the other day, and, and I'm someone who works with a lot of brands was saying, you know, it's almost like every brand needs to become a tech company and a data company that it's, it's no, it's no longer optional to, to figure out how are you going to sort of take all of this incoming information and make decisions off of it because things are moving too fast to have it be kind of human powered solely. So as you said, it's going to be an interesting year and a year from now. I'll put it on the calendar. If you're, if your prognostication has come true, we definitely will need to talk again. So Sherry, thank you so much for, for coming on and sharing your point of view on this rapidly changing space. We appreciate it.
Sherry:
All right. So much enjoyed the time. Thank you, Robin, Peter. Appreciate it.
Peter:
Thanks again to Sherry for sharing her bird's eye view of the retail media ecosystem. Going to be an interesting year, please share this episode with your colleagues who need to hear it, and thanks as always for being part of our community.
