Transcript
Peter Crosby:
Welcome to Unpacking the Digital Shelf where we explore brand manufacturing in the digital age.
Hey everyone. Peter Crosby here from The Digital Shelf Institute. Anyone who has spent any time following the e-commerce industry, and particularly Amazon and Walmart, is familiar with the journalism of Jason Del Rey, who spent a decade at Recode documenting the transformation of retail, and also through his podcast, Land of the Giants: The rise of Amazon. He has now come out with a deeply researched and incisive book entitled, Winner Sells All: Amazon, Walmart, and The Battle for Our Wallets. And he joined Rob Gonzalez and me to share some insights of this most consequential era in retail and where this clash of the titans might go from here. Jason, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We're really delighted to have you here.
Jason Del Rey:
Pleasure is mine.
Peter Crosby:
So first of all, congratulations on researching and writing such a blisteringly detailed and told story of the rivalry between Walmart and Amazon for our wallets. I can tell the work that went into it, that I'm sure ... I can't even imagine how any interviews you conducted to get there.
Jason Del Rey:
I don't recommend it.
Peter Crosby:
For the sanity or the family.
Jason Del Rey:
Yeah, both. But thank you. I appreciate it.
Peter Crosby:
So often we think of companies doing battle, that companies are fighting, but what stood out, I thought, so vibrantly in your storytelling, at least to me, was that it's more about the humans who are fighting the war from Doug McMillon and Jeff Bezos to Marc Lore and Dave Clark to Chris Smalls, who in March, 2020 stages a walkout in his Staten Island Amazon warehouse protesting about not enough transparency over COVID that ultimately turns into a union. And even the ghost of Sam Walton of all things. Did you feel that way? Is it the humanity or sometimes the lack of it in this war that stood out to you writing the book?
Jason Del Rey:
One of the things I wanted to get across in the three years of reporting I put into this book was that it's easy to look at these big goliaths and forget that of course there's everyday people, the rank and file that are executing on the missions and the commands. But also that at the top of the company, it's not some nebulous company making these very important decisions that influence so many people. It is talented, but also flawed humans with agendas or motivations that are not always about customers. Sometimes are. Not always about maybe what's the best service, but there's insecurities, there's revenge. I mean, these are people. And so in some ways this story is a grand case study of I think one of the greatest tales of the Innovator's Dilemma with Walmart. On the other hand, it really is trying to shine a light on how decisions are made and the motivations of two of the most powerful companies in this world.
Rob Gonzalez:
And speaking of the motivations in Walmart's Innovator's Dilemma, about a decade ago ish, I remember Doug McMillon went to the Waltons and said very dramatically, "We're going to be Sears if we don't do something." And so he really, really wanted Walmart to transform to be this digital company. But one of the major themes throughout the book is that this was not a smooth process at all, and there were fits and starts and shifts and kind of internal fighting between Greg and Marc Lore and all that type of stuff. So what are the key lessons that you took away from all that in the research? What are the big patterns in the human decision making process that stood out?
Jason Del Rey:
Yeah, so I've been thinking about this a lot and I thought about it some during the book, but really so in the weeds that once I'm done, I step back and I'm thinking about the lessons myself. One is, and maybe this is obvious in business, but to me, what stood out was the incentives you set up in your business really matter. And I know that's may sound ... I'm saying it with a laugh because I know it's obvious, but what we saw for a long time was traditional core, mature, successful business had incentives that were mainly about profitability and keeping the execution tight. And Marc Lore comes in with his team in 2016 and also walmart.com folks, decades passed, and they're being told by some or feeling that I need to close the market share gap. So what do I need to do? I need to grow, grow, grow. I mean, I think Marc Lore once quipped at some public event that Greg Foran on the store side, "He makes the money, I spend it." And so ...
Rob Gonzalez:
I remember in your book that that didn't go over very well.
Jason Del Rey:
Not the best, no. I have an anecdote where Greg would, not to Marc but to some others, would call Marc, refer to Marc as the $3 billion Man. And joke about that he must be a long-lost Walton family member because of the stock package he got. But nonetheless, we are all humans, as I said. So I think incentives matter, and Marc Lore talked about this for the book. He said he kept telling Doug McMillon, "We need to combine these orgs and we need to get the incentives aligned." And so for the brief period of time after Greg Foran left and John Furner took over and Marc Lore's org started reporting up into John, they changed their bonus structure, the two executives so that they were more aligned. So that's one.
Another big one, and this pains me as a journalist because we pride ourselves on not being spun by corporate narratives, but narratives and storytelling in business really, really matter too. I'm sure we'll get to it, but people ask me, "Was the Jet acquisition and Marc Lore's tenure successful or not successful?" And I say, "Well, depends on what your definition of success is, and if your definition is changing the narrative of Walmart so it's not considered a digital laggard anymore in technology hiring circles on Wall Street and in the media, I think his tenure was very successful and he was very good at telling a story of digital transformation."
But if you pick apart his decision making and initiatives and look at them as one-offs, the grade you'd give him and his team is maybe not as kind. And so narratives and storytelling in business, if you can be excellent and excel at that, something Marc was very good at. Doug McMillon is a phenomenal speaker, and there's some frustration that they don't put him out there even more. That could change, you need to have a good business. But storytelling and narratives could take you over the top. And I'll take a breath, but I do have a couple other takeaways if we want to keep going or we could jump to something else.
Rob Gonzalez:
Yeah, I mean, I'll tell you that humans are such storytelling machines, and I can't think of an area where it doesn't matter. I mean, I'm among them, I'm a mathematics, computer science, total nerd and tend to bias towards, "Oh my God, if you're just rational and you make the right arguments then people will totally get it" and it's totally untrue. Absolutely does not matter. It's like the storytelling is huge. And to your point on Doug, I remember he's not really that public that often. Tim Ferris did a live interview with him down in Crystal City that was just an hour with him and Doug, and I remember listening to it and my takeaway was, God, why isn't this guy in front of the media all the time? He's the most likable, polished, down to earth leader. It was just really impressive. But anyway, yeah.
Jason Del Rey:
No, what struck me about Doug and his reputation, so I didn't know him ... I'd covered Walmart a long time and I think I'd spoken to him maybe as part of a group of journalists prior to this. Never met him one-on-one. And so I did get a chance in 2022 to fly down to Bentonville and I sat with him in his office for, it was about a 90-minute interview. It was supposed to be 60 minutes, and we ended up going just a little bit over. And he is, for as powerful as he is and how much money he makes and how important his decisions are, at least if he's not really down to earth, he plays it really, really well. And what struck me in talking to people who who've worked at Walmart, talked to more than 150 folks for this book, was that even folks who left the company on not great terms had 90% positive things to say about Doug and his leadership.
And to your point about frustration or about him not being out there as much as some might hope, I talked to a lot of e-commerce people who went over to Walmart and they would hear phrases like "What would Sam do in a meeting?" Of course referencing Sam Walton 30 years after Sam passed and they'd look around thinking, this is a joke. But it was really, the what would Sam do belief and sort of Sam as the ultimate champion of the company long past his death, I think has been frustrating for some who think we have this amazing champion in Doug and he can help us tell our story even better if he has the platform.
And so we've seen him out there a little more, but one of my favorite chapters was the chapter I wrote about Doug, just because I learned a lot. And he is not a perfect guy. There are definite flaws, but I think a very undercover leader in this country still, which is part of the reason I wrote the book. I think Walmart, and outside of trade publications and a few great national journalists, I think for how much power and importance they have to this country, still really kind of undercover because Amazon for a variety of reasons is the sexy thing to pay attention to.
Rob Gonzalez:
There was a book, you probably read it, but The Wal-Mart Effect, it came out maybe ...
Jason Del Rey:
Yeah, I read it twice during this process. But yeah.
Rob Gonzalez:
There was the anecdote on, I think it was the University of Chicago did an economic study on the impact of Walmart's effect on supply chain efficiency because Walmart would put a lot of pressure on their suppliers to become more efficient. And I think the economists argued that Walmart's cleaning up of US supply chains help keep inflation down for the country as much as an entire point.
Jason Del Rey:
Point.
Rob Gonzalez:
Which is an absolutely incredible statistic. Yeah, I mean to your point, it's not like they're less important now than they were in 2006. If anything, they're more important now than they were in 2006, when that book I think came out. But anyways, you've got two lessons so far we've gone into. The importance of narrative and we've gone into the importance of incentives and those are amazing. So are there others that stuck out?
Jason Del Rey:
Yeah, I'll just do two more quick ones. And this is something I think Amazon leadership could learn from Walmart, but to much the surprise and chagrin of a lot of former Amazonians who love the company, they have not. And that is listening to critical external feedback matters when you get to the size of these companies. And even if you're pretending to, and Amazon and Walmart, I talk about this, I forget if it's in the prologue or in the first chapter. Walmart under Lee Scott in the, I think mid-oughts went on a little bit of a listening tour with critics and yes, self-serving for sure. But met with a lot of environmental orgs, think met with some labor groups, met with critical journalists, and doesn't mean they agreed, doesn't mean it wasn't at least partly, or maybe even mostly about perception. But they acknowledged there were areas they need to improve.
And what I've been struck with at the top of Amazon over the last few years, especially as scrutiny ramped up during the pandemic of both their labor practices and also the anti-competitive stuff, was just the straight-up disdain they showed for critics and just a lack of self-awareness. And maybe that'll change a little bit under Andy Jassy, but Andy's been there a very long time as we know. And so maybe they'd say it hasn't blown up in their face in a real big way, but I know they made a lot more enemies than they had in Washington, DC during the last few years. Not that politicians can't show arrogance, but there was really just a shock among folks investigating the company and just scrutinizing the company in DC at what they saw as a lack of self-awareness and just an arrogance on behalf of the leadership there.
And so I think Walmart, some people ask why is Amazon sort of the new boogieman or the new enemy number one in some circles. And I think there's a lot of reasons why. I think Jeff Bezos' wealth, I think their ambition is even greater than Walmart's. But I think part of it is too is they don't make themselves easy to like at the top of the company. And so I think that matters at some point. Maybe, we'll see.
Peter Crosby:
Well, when I read your acknowledgements, I went all the way through the acknowledgements even and ...
Jason Del Rey:
Sorry, my next book you'll make it.
Peter Crosby:
Yes. I was very disappointed. The first thing I did of course was go to the index and see if our podcast was mentioned. Well, I read your Walmart thanks to the people at Walmart, and then your Amazon sentence was, "Chris Oster and Jordan Daigle at Amazon were as helpful as you might find inside that company."
Jason Del Rey:
Yeah, I'm worried. There was not much snark behind that. And Jordan specifically who I spent most of the time with over the last few years on this was really very helpful. But yeah, I mean I have more gray ... I mean I've covered them 10 years, taken a couple of years off my life for sure. But there are good folks there and obviously smart as heck folks there and ones that mean well. But as the Amazon narrative changed over the last couple of decades from mostly a feel good story of innovation to a complicated one, the leadership is just not really adapted along the way. And so it's their company. They could be behave how they see fit.
Peter Crosby:
Well, while we're in Amazon Land, I think in some ways I was visualizing this battle as sort of a tug of war ultimately over omnichannel and the omnichannel consumer, however you want to think about that. And that Walmart's pulling from the side where they've got stores down and are trying to get the digital over. And Amazon's got digital down and is trying to get the stores over. Does that kind of resonate with you? And do you think, I saw recently in coverage of some ... Maybe it was their quarterly earnings where they were asking about what's your store strategy or something like that. And Andy Jassy just switched over to AWS and AI and was like, "Good store strategy doesn't matter." And I was wondering, what do you think about where they are in that journey and is it still the big sort of white whale of Moby Dick not to mix that's my metaphors.
Jason Del Rey:
Yeah. It's all good. I think a lot of people, and maybe not you folks, and maybe not folks who know brick and mortar very well, assumed that when they made a decision on the how they could differentiate in physical retail and they made their move, they would find success rather quickly. And I think it's been a wake-up call internally. Frankly, I think for folks in the technology industry and some of us in the media, I think there was an assumption that when Amazon enters a new space, they're kind of the smartest guys and gals in the room and they will figure it out. And I mean they've really, really struggled and I think the Whole Foods acquisition has not been what they hoped. I think for them to pause and slightly roll back physical retail, they can call it, "This was an experiment" but I think they're very disappointed by their outcome so far.
And so I do think they absolutely need to have a scaled business in the physical world. Now the question for me is, does it end up becoming strictly a technology service business through just walkout technology or the Amazon palm payments or something like that? But I tend to think they need physical outposts because I think the return logistics game is becoming only more and more complicated if you want to really give consumers every option they want in sort of this what should be in omnichannel world today. So not sure I answered your question, but that's sort of how I'm thinking about them in the physical world. It's been a huge disappointment.
Peter Crosby:
I didn't want to be over dramatic about it, but I wondered is it existential? But they're so big now and they have so many other businesses that it isn't. But I think it is maybe existential perhaps to the everything store for every ... It's sort of your winner sell all kind of premise of the book.
Jason Del Rey:
Yeah, I think if you go back, and ... So Doug Harrington is now CEO. I forget the weird title that he has, but it's essentially CEO of the core consumer business at Amazon. He's not running AWS, trying to think what else outside of ... He's running just about everything else at the company and reports to Andy Jassy. And Doug, he was at Webvan way back in the day and then led the early consumables team at Amazon. And I spoke to Doug for the book and early on, he wrote a memo I think that essentially said to the leadership team, "If we have these ambitions of essentially," he didn't say the everything store, but of "Being the everything retailer, we cannot do it without CPG or grocery." And so it was his pitch for starting a grocery delivery service back in the day.
This is all to say, yeah, if they want to hit that vision of really getting the frequent purchases down and providing customers anything they want to shop, including grocery and consumables, they just have not figured out how to do that in a digital only way. And so to your point, maybe doesn't feel existential now, but their long-term vision in retail does not happen if they don't figure out physical retail, I think.
Rob Gonzalez:
The interesting thing about them though is this willingness to make big bets and have those bets fail and then shut those bets down. And I remember the first big quote about this was after the Fire phone, which was not a good feature product release, a billion-dollar mistake. And Azo said something to the effect of, "Yeah, when we were smaller, we made small mistakes and moved on. And now that we're bigger, we make the big mistakes and move on. And if we're not making mistakes commensurate to the scale of our business, then we're just not trying hard enough." I mean, from a competitor's perspective, it's kind of terrifying because a $13 billion acquisition of Whole Foods, it's a big mistake, but it's not that big. It's not an unaffordable mistake for them to make. And it's not like they're going to stop trying just because the first couple of things haven't worked.
Jason Del Rey:
No, you're absolutely right. And I think that is incredibly scary to Walmart folks and has been forever. So I have an anecdote I think in chapter one where some early walmart.com leaders are ... They start to listen to Amazon's earning calls just as paying attention. And you would think maybe the CEO of Walmart would want to be paying attention to those two at the time, but they weren't. But anyway, these digital folks are doing it and they're like, I forget the numbers, but they're like, "Holy shit, they just invested 1.5 billion into warehouses in Q2 and we're investing 200 million in the whole fiscal year into our business" or something at that scale.
And I think one of my most interesting takeaways from my interview with Doug McMillon was he had some quote that was like, "Personally, I'm not a risk-taker, never going to be the dude that's bungee jumping. I don't like risks. I'm not going to bet. But if we're going to exist 20 years from now, we need to take big risks." And just back to the talk of incentives, something I didn't get deep into in this book, but I've thought a lot about is the incentive structures of putting aside difference between physical retail and e-commerce at Walmart, but the top leadership, are they incentivized for long-term thinking or are they incentivized for near term ROI? And look at Amazon and it's very different. And so yes, their appetite for risk while in the last year as they pull back and cost cut, this seems to be a new Amazon, I think absolutely very scary to any competitor and absolutely to Walmart and the leadership team there.
Rob Gonzalez:
Well there's a cultural element to incentives, which I think is fascinating. If you go back to the storytelling point that you made. In Amazon, a well-executed mistake can further your career. And in a lot of companies a well executed mistake cannot further your career. Like a poorly executed mistake, "You're out of here, but we agreed to do this thing, you did it really well, it didn't work out. But that's not because you didn't do it well. It's because it turns out to have been strategic mistake. But if we're not making strategic mistakes, then we're not trying hard enough." That's like an Amazon cultural thing. And you do see in companies that have been around longer, there tends to be more of a risk avoidance. It doesn't happen to all of them. I mean there there's some like PNG that seem to reinvent themselves every generation, but a lot of them ...
Jason Del Rey:
It's very rare. And when I started reporting on these companies 10 years ago, I read Sam Walton's book and I went back and of course read it again as I started reporting for this book. And I couldn't help but think that for many years, reading his beliefs and the way he talked and thought about business, that he would've been very disappointed in how Walmart evolved. And not more recently, but that period of time where there was not much risk taking or innovation frankly. And it was showing not only on the digital side, but obviously in physical retail as well. I think Greg Foran was ... Marc Lore got talked about a lot, and that was a problem internally I think too. But Greg had a really tough job on his hands coming in and I think was misunderstood to some extent on the digital side, which I understand. But really led sort of a pretty remarkable turnaround of the physical business as well.
Rob Gonzalez:
Yeah, there's this quote that you had in the book, which I want to call out. I think this was from Doug McMillon. "E-commerce is hard, stores are hard. And when something's not working, cut bait and move on, try something else." And it seems to me like the spirit of that quote is in line with Sam and in line with Bezos in spirit.
Jason Del Rey:
It is. And I think Doug's done a strong job really trying to instill that belief back into Walmart. And I think it's very difficult, but they seem to be getting there. And that quote you referenced, so the question ... I'm laughing as I say this because I went into that interview and I think a few days prior maybe Amazon had announced they were shutting down their bookstores, and I was hoping, journalist looking for a good narrative, I'm hoping that I asked Doug about Amazon shutting down the stores or maybe he gives them a little dig or something. And instead, and he starts chuckling when I ask him the question. So now I think I'm getting a really juicy answer. And instead that was his answer, which was a very Doug answer I've learned. And I think he believed it.
Peter Crosby:
He didn't take the bait.
Jason Del Rey:
Little bit of a letdown [inaudible 00:28:02] for this guy over here. Yeah.
Peter Crosby:
So I wanted to ask you about, a sentence that stood out to me and I've actually used in the last two podcasts I've recorded because I think it's so true, and I've been looking for the vocabulary to describe what I'm feeling. You talk about the increasingly messy bazar of Amazon or Walmart's websites, and bazar actually captured it for me in a way that nothing else ever has. And you look at the math and it's still converting and they're driving the business and it's growing, but it's horrible. And I'm just wondering if you came away with thoughts about where that's going to go from here. You talked about conversational commerce and everything. Do you have a sense of if there's any hope for the future of something that's less bazar-like?
Jason Del Rey:
Listen, as much as I'm sick of the talk of generative AI. Sorry guys, if you've been hammering that home, but I'll speak to the Amazon side at least and without ... I'm trying to think how I could talk about this without giving away some sources, but I think Amazon is hopeful that there is a much better product search recommendation experience that's on the horizon. And maybe not the three-month horizon, but maybe a year from now, the experience is a lot better. But I think the problem again, sorry, going back to incentives is what the flywheel has shown them is we add more sellers at more price points and we attract more sellers and consumers seem to like the increased selection.
The experience is awful, but then go back to Amazon is not really a shopping experience. It's a buying experience. It is a transactional portal. To me at least, it is not a ... I'm trying to think of a real world equivalent. You are most of the time going there with something very specific in mind and not window shopping. And so maybe they are still, I guess, seeing something in the data that's telling them the crappy experience they're giving us visually is okay. And I just feel like at some point, it has to blow up in a not great way, but hasn't to date. So that's a long way of saying, I hear you. I feel similarly, I think they think there are some solutions that they could solve with the help of some of the generative AI advancements we're seeing. And so I'm going to be following it as closely as you were.
Rob Gonzalez:
Yeah, I'm not as down on the experience as I think you two are simply because I think Amazon, the way that it was described to me years ago, which I think it still holds true today, is that experience is a spear phishing experience, not a browsing experience. And you want to get in, get out. And a lot of websites, you look at Google Analytics or Adobe Analytics or whatever you're using, and people that are optimizing the website want you to be on the website longer. New York Times looks at users coming to newyorktimes.com and they want you to be on there as long as possible.
Jason Del Rey:
Time spent on my articles was a key metric.
Rob Gonzalez:
Huge. And Amazon, they actually look at it as the wrong metric. They want there to be as little time as possible. That's why the buy it now thing exists is my wife will tell us that I'm missing something. I search on Amazon for the thing, buy it now, move on with my day, two hours later I'll go back, buy it now, move on with my day. And so from that perspective, the experience is pretty effective. And the other thing I'll say about it is that, and a lot of these user interface contexts, it's not whether it's objectively good or bad, it's what you're used to. I remember the first time I was on a business trip.
Jason Del Rey:
Absolutely. That's a great point.
Rob Gonzalez:
And this is with a sales engineer. This is, I don't know, 11 years ago, 12 years ago, we get into a Prius. We had rented a Prius at Hertz, we had landed at the airport, we go to Hertz, we get it, they assigned us a Prius. We get in there and there's no place to put your key. And I'm just sitting there in this Prius and we're both engineers, and for 10 minutes we couldn't figure out how to turn this car on. And we've been in cars before for so long, and we're just like, "Where do you turn this car on?" And so finally we figured out, "Oh, it's a button." But no one explained that there was a freaking button. And maybe in some objective world, the buttons are better than the keys. And at this point everyone's used to them.
But it's like if you're in Amazon and you change stuff, there's no way that's going to make sales go better. It's obviously going to make sales go worse because everyone's sort of used to it. It's like turning the key, don't mess up with the key. Anyway, this is just to say I hear what you're saying.
Jason Del Rey:
Yeah. No.
Rob Gonzalez:
It's an Innovator's Dilemma of its own, isn't it?
Jason Del Rey:
It is. And one final takeaway I had, as I've watched at first, surprisingly Amazon struggle in physical retail was that, and I have an anecdote section of a chapter in my book is about some of their employee behavior in their bookstores. And it's essentially, not to give too much away, but essentially the incentives for bookstore employees were not maybe what you might think when you hear a bookstore. It was not necessarily to sell more books, it was to sell gadgets and to sign people up to digital Amazon subscriptions. And so I guess, again, maybe a straightforward one, but as you're entering new channels or new industries, if your main goal is to get the most out of that new channel for your existing mature business or you're serving customers in a way that is not first and foremost serving the customer need in that moment, you could run into trouble. And so I won't give away more of what was going on there, but in the back half of the book, I think there's some interesting stuff about the incentives Amazon had in its bookstores for employees.
Peter Crosby:
Yeah, it's a great read and it's stunning. To close Jason, one of your final chapters is Walmart 2040. You also describe Amazon as being at a crossroads. Where do you see the battle for these two titans going over the next decade? Will there be a winner? Is there any chance at all it will be the consumer? What pearls of wisdom do you have to share as we head out?
Jason Del Rey:
Listen, my hope as just a regular person rooting for competitive economy and better existence each and every day is that 20 years from now, we're talking about a new, fabulous, innovative company that's perhaps a little better for the environment, a little better for employees and still serving our needs well and conveniently. But barring that, I think this period the next year or so at Amazon, it's going to be very interesting to see what the Andy Jassy tenure is really about. I think Amazon did get undisciplined in some of their spending under Bezos in his last few years. Jassy is essentially, through their actions, have essentially said as much. And so I don't know what kind of company yet he wants Amazon to be. And so the next year will tell us a lot.
I think for Walmart, I thought Doug McMillon, he's almost 10 years into his CEO tenure. I thought he might have one more year, but I think he'll be there a few more years. And so I think it's very important, that decision about who succeeds him will be fascinating.
But we haven't even talked about healthcare. I do have a chapter there. I really do think we could be looking back 10 years from now and looking at one or both of these companies in a completely different light if they really keep on this path of investing heavily into trying to innovate in healthcare. We know how unwelcoming that space is to newcomers. We know how challenging it is with the PBM model. We know how much need there is though for better model in the US, or at least desired by when you survey people. And so for all their strengths and weaknesses, my hope is one of them makes a difference there because that'll impact all of us in a more meaningful way, I think, than just buying my package Cheerios and getting it delivered that day. So not sure if I directly answered your question, but those are some of the things I'm thinking about looking out at both companies over the next decade or so.
Peter Crosby:
Well, let's put it on the calendar. 10 years from now, we'll have you back on and we'll hold you accountable for [inaudible 00:38:04].
Jason Del Rey:
If I am still covering them in 10 years, my life will look very different because I won't be married anymore. That'll be very sad because I love my wife very much.
Peter Crosby:
And if I'm still working in 10 years, the dementia will have set in. So it'll be a fun interview for everyone.
Jason Del Rey:
Oh, man.
Peter Crosby:
Well, Jason, thank you so much. I mean, a great piece of both journalism and storytelling. And for our listeners who not only are enmeshed in this battle, sometimes to their dismay, but also that fight these silos of e-commerce digital versus the longstanding in-store teams and all of this stuff will be very familiar. And seeing it happen at such a titanic scale, I think makes it a great read. So Jason won't say it, but I will. Go to your local bookstore or to one of the titans that are in the book to get it. Again, it's called Winner Sells All: Amazon, Walmart, and The Battle for Our Wallets. And Jason Del Rey, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.
Jason Del Rey:
I had a great time. Thanks for having me.
Peter Crosby:
Thanks again to Jason for all the knowledge. There's always more knowledge to be had at digitalshelfinstitute.org. Head on over and become a member. Thanks for being part of our community.
