Transforming for the Era of Profitability, with Jamie Schwab, Vice President, Global Digital Commerce at Colgate-Palmolive

Transcript

Our transcripts are generated by AI. Please excuse any typos and if you have any specific questions please email info@digitalshelfinstitute.org.

Peter Crosby (00:00):
Welcome to unpacking the digital shelf where we explore brand manufacturing in the digital age. Hey everyone. Peter Crosby here from the Digital Shelf Institute. The pressure to achieve omnichannel growth profitably is on, and it's changing the way brands need to operate. Jamie Schwab now VP of Global Digital Commerce at Colgate Palmolive has lived through the stages of e-commerce from being the secret sideshow to its role as a driver of growth at companies like Unilever, Newell and Dole. Now he leads a global center of excellence, defining the people, process, data, and tech that will achieve the expected, profitable omni results by enabling the best omni consumer experiences. It's an exciting and challenging journey. And Jamie joined Lauren Livak Gilbert and me to share the details. Welcome to the podcast, Jamie. We are so looking forward to chatting with you. Thank you for being with us.
Jamie Schwab (01:07):
My pleasure. Good to see you guys.
Peter Crosby (01:09):
Yeah. I mentioned in the opening you have had a wealth of experience at some of the biggest CPG companies, and you've been on the e-commerce journey from a small fraction of the business that worked over on the side to a huge driver of growth. So I just love your sense of where the state of e-commerce digital commerce is right now.
Jamie Schwab (01:33):
Yeah, see, I think from my vantage point, we're coming around to a very mature section of the growth curve with e-commerce, where profitability has got to be the main focus in identifying what levers to pull to continue to deliver on that growth, but do it in a profitable way. And really what it comes down to is managing a lot of complexity of essentially this new commercial model versus the historical one. And that's our most pressing need as e-commerce practitioners as e-commerce professionals within organizations that have been building businesses profitably for decades after decades. Overall, really the attention to the right details is vital. So putting frameworks around challenges is crucial, and we'll probably dive deep into this in a few different ways, but people, process and technology fueled by data needs has to be the main focus for commercial operations to keep up with this evolving marketplace.
Peter Crosby (02:35):
And Jamie, when you mentioned the new commercial model, is the image in your head that's popping up or is the image omnichannel and how do you think about what is that new commercial model that you are working towards right now?
Jamie Schwab (02:50):
Yeah, I think that's a great question. I'll tell you what I used to say and then maybe ad-lib a little bit on where we're at right now.
(02:59):
Because I used to talk about how if the commercial model was a aircraft carrier pulling into port, you needed something different with e-commerce and you probably needed a whole bunch of small tactical boats that could go out and compete and do what they're supposed to do out there because it was just different and you couldn't turn that aircraft carrier at the same speed and pace that you needed to in order to address the needs. I think that's dead. I do think that that model has since passed. So that's why I chuckle a little bit when I bring up what I would say two, three years ago because it has to integrate into omni, right? And you've got to start to put these different pieces together, whether or not you get into a conversation about living in sales or living in marketing or is e-commerce just a channel? The fact of the matter is it's a puzzle piece that fits into something that's bigger, but now it's a big puzzle piece, and it's the puzzle piece that's growing tends to be growing more than every other piece in that puzzle. So it's omni, we are living in an omni world and how we adjust to it, again with the people, process tech is really what we have to sort through.
Lauren Livak Gilbert (04:22):
So along the lines of people, process, tech process, which sometimes people stop listening because they think it's super tactical. I always say people think process is a dirty word, but it's not. It's incredibly critical when it comes to the digital shelf and having the right operations. So can you talk a bit about your journey through the process for the digital shelf and how that's evolved?
Jamie Schwab (04:44):
Sure, I'd be happy to. And yes, I enjoy the process conversation, which I don't know what that says about me, but that's probably why I to your podcast and why I'm here talking today in general, thank you. But I think the framing is what's really important and when it's done well, I like to say process is improved via technology and it makes people's work lives better, easier, or more attainable. However you want to quantify what success looks like, how it comes together with people in tech is usually unfortunately something that takes artistry to describe. You talked about the journey here with the digital shelf at Colgate Palm Olive. I'm lucky that between the incredible talent on my team with Todd Feld and Elisa Levinsky, along with our external partners who I'll just leave nameless so they can yell at me later. The journey of the digital shelf is well underway, and it was well underway when I arrived.
(05:43):
We're about four years in, and I arrived halfway through that. And when it comes down to it, you have to establish your metrics and your benchmarks as a starting place, driving for some level of improvement against those numbers, right? Month in and month out, working with our markets around the world and just kind of saying that is that's the journey overall. When you put those benchmarks in place, you're help identifying where energy and resources are needed, realizing those resources may not always be very available. So problem solving with the local market teams is what it all comes down to. Really one of the biggest, I mean, you really maybe turn off people and put them to sleep, but how do we ensure data integrity? So decision making is sound and drives impact. That's the biggest part of the journey that no one really wants to ever really talk about in general, but it's where a lot of energy has to reside, especially sitting in a global function like we do.
(06:48):
So ensuring data integrity, that can sound like a whole bunch of corporate speak, but if you take it the other way, that's a huge challenge for us to overcome. We're at this inflection point in e-commerce, like I was saying a little while ago in terms of where we exist, how we exist structurally, but we've been stacking up growth year on year, and this is pretty much it. Most companies that you talk to right now overall. So the materiality of how we deliver the next phase of growth is really, really vital overall, and it's changed the dynamic of what this journey looks like. If you're succeeding on your digital shelf benchmarks and scores and numbers, are you succeeding or is that the entry point? Is that the table stakes in the entire game of what we're trying to do? So can we deliver two or three x growth? How are you going to find out whether or not you have unlocks on your digital shelf to deliver that next phase of the growth? That's really where good process and technology can come together to help you shine the right lights in the right places. And I don't know, just saying all that felt like a journey, but that gives you a sense where things are at and how we're seeing the world right now.
Lauren Livak Gilbert (08:07):
And you mentioned you're in a global role, so can you talk a bit about the process from a global to regional perspective, right? So do you set a process at a global level and then have the regions iterate on that? How does that dynamic work,
Jamie Schwab (08:24):
The dynamics? It's real. Peter, you mentioned at the outset that I've been around the CPG universe for quite a number of years now. I've seen it done very differently in my different organizations that I've worked for at Colgate. I like to say we're proudly decentralized. We are a group of divisions and markets who the decision-making resides with them and they get to drive and grow the business as they see fit, which is different than other kind of command and control structures that I've been a part of throughout the course of my career. So where we sit in the current day is that we're a company that we're a central team that attempts to guide and advise from the center versus dictate. So that's said in the center. We're also a team of experts with well-rounded experience. So we can find teams on the ground that are thirsting for our help and our support and that guidance and counsel as we go as an operating principle.
(09:29):
For me, recommendations do need to come from the center, but they need to be in collaboration with the regions. So the first thing that we do is listen and we understand what is going on, what their needs are, what their gaps are, and where we believe that we can provide either actual direct support or support along the means of improved process, improved vendors, improved partners in the marketplace to drive for those solutions that they need overall. So that's really it. We start by listening and then we come back and we partner up with the teams on the ground. When we mentioned earlier, where do we sit right then we're no longer a big ship and a bunch of little ships out there. That dynamic still is at play from an operational standpoint. So my team's partnering with the digital commerce teams on the ground, they could be sitting in a division of Latin America serving all the countries from Mexico on down south, or we could be working with the US team and the North America team here in the States. So how do we understand what their challenges are? But their challenges are usually somewhat uniquely manifest, but not necessarily unique. So content syndication, distribution, source of truth, those types of things. So our ultimate guide is how can we provide back and support and counsel that gives solutions that can scale both within a region and across our entire organization overall.
Peter Crosby (11:11):
Not to pound your metaphor any further, but I keep thinking of that an aircraft carrier just won't work these days. It's almost like a super fast destroyer. Your group needs to be the one that is sort of pounding through the rough seas, solving the big problems so that we don't have time for planes to land on the aircraft carrier refuel figure things out. They need to be out there going where they're going. And then you were just making it Anyway. Sorry, I just throw that in there for your next metaphor. Reverb, battleship, anyone? I'll try to go back to sports metaphors. Yeah, it's better. But I did actually, because what I loved when you started our conversation around process, one of the things that you said is that process is about making our people's lives slash jobs better, easier, faster, stronger, and I loved that.
(12:11):
And then one of the things that you went to, so that's really binding those two things in process together, but then that third thing that you talked about, which is data integrity, that none of this happens if you can't count on what's giving you the signals and the rapidity with which that's refreshed and the ability to take action on. And I wonder, imagine that must be a huge collaboration with it with data teams, and I'm just wondering how to the degree you can share how all of that works to make sure that you can claim data integrity and have your folks feel confident about it.
Jamie Schwab (12:50):
So I think right now it's a huge attention to detail and you have to be selective in terms of where you're going to seek out and find that smoothness in the data so that it can flow. I used to talk a lot about ecosystems as well with my teams and our partners in that you can be agnostic of who it is if it's a partner, if it's an agency, if it's our internal teams, but it's got to be an ecosystem and a smooth flow of data transferring to make decisions and keep the engine running basically. Overall, I think we don't suffer from a lack of data. Everybody knows this. You hear people talk, the great analogy of data is oil, but you need to refine it to actually use it when that whole piece that comes along.
(13:46):
So what are we doing and what data do we need to refine? Do we need to ensure we can put into the engine so that it can run? That gets into working very closely and collaboratively with our partners. And so whether or not it's our digital shelf data providers, our bid management systems, our sources of truth, from a PIM dam standpoint, it really gets into an incredible level of governance. And governance. Sounds so scary. Oh god, governance run, but what is it? It's clear definitions of how you're going to put stuff into a database. Tagging. Tagging sounds terrifying until it's just like, well, we have a uniform way of putting a code on this asset that doesn't sound so scary. So I think you have to be selective, right in these days because you could turn around and look at all the explosive retail media platform possibilities and choices and things that are out there right now, which should also guide where our data strategy comes and harmonizes with the digital shelf to know whether or not we have availability.
(14:59):
Do we get good search rankings or is our content ready and fit for purpose for what we're trying to do overall? And if it's not going to send you the right signal, or can I only accept a signal from one provider, what does that look like? So it gets super complicated and I just think most things in life, you got to prioritize and make some choices. So top markets, top retailers and top data providers so that you can actually put these pieces together to create some semblance of an ecosystem. But the collaboration with our global IT team, GIT, that we have the collaboration with our insights team globally, that also feeds right into the markets. These are all vital components of overlap as we go on this journey of data integrity, which I actually have always kind of laughed, and I say this to this woman, Marissa, who runs the program in our organization, writing a data strategy seems pretty easy when you have an example of somebody who's done it, who has one, knowing what it takes to do a data strategy is the thing that makes people basically crawl under their desk.
Peter Crosby (16:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Lauren Livak Gilbert (16:17):
Jamie, you mentioned it. Can we just talk about that for a second? Because when you're talking about data and you're talking about governance and the digital shelf in general, what have been some best practices or good ways of working, collaborating with the global IT team, especially as a global team because they're a critical component of this and traditionally in some organizations they've been kind of separate, but it seems like you have a good collaborative relationship. So any best practices there in working with them?
Jamie Schwab (16:44):
Yeah, I think it's getting very clear on the deliverable and that an MVP is a starting point when it comes down to it. I think that's probably the two biggest pieces over the last couple of years working with our GIT team and we're making great progress. Once you can see what that end is and goal of what you have, then you can start to work back from it. I had a blessing in my life in hindsight that my first kind of real job was, or maybe my second real job was I did software consulting, designing online databases in Oracle to migrate desktop platforms onto the web. Wow, that's a mouthful.
(17:33):
But nothing's really apologies to the cloud people and the data lake people and everything else, but nothing's really changed. You're trying to put a whole bunch of data together and be able to slam it together to give you a better output. That's literally all that it is. It's super complicated. I can't do it. I can't write a lick a code, but it's really what it all comes down to is can point a figure out how to assign values or the primary keys to put everything together into point table B to then put something together based off of that. If you can, then you can start to make a lot of progress in connecting pipes and doing all these other things along the way. So what's great is our GIT team, our leadership, they very much understand this, and so we're just working together on what do we need to do, how clear do we need to make it, and how can we create these internal platforms that really work together to enable the markets to deliver their goals?
Peter Crosby (18:39):
I love that. And how do you make sure that the incentives are aligned across your team and theirs? Is it that shared goal? Is it something that people are held accountable to or is it you're lucky enough to have leadership that is already sort of in that mindset of being aligned?
Jamie Schwab (19:01):
I mean, it's a process just like anything else. We go through the significant planning process and everything else to highlight what it is we're trying to do next year's budgets, all that good stuff. So it's pretty normal, I believe, in general, but you have to go through that difficult part of the process, which is actually to articulate what it is you're trying to accomplish
Peter Crosby (19:29):
And
Jamie Schwab (19:30):
What would the value be of that and everything along those lines. So there's nothing necessarily that different than back when I was in a previous role when we were consolidating seven tech stacks into one. Most of the work went on in discovery and that part of the process with our IT partners and our business commercial partners and everything else that we were doing to try and figure out what are we doing, and then letting the technical people peel off and go figure out what that meant and what that was going to mean from a working standpoint overall. So
Peter Crosby (20:10):
Yeah, that investment of work upfront is so, so critical and often people just want to jump to the due date
Jamie Schwab (20:19):
And in a world where it's been very interesting over the last, I'd say five, seven years for me personally, because when I mentioned having started in software consulting a long time ago, that was back when they were pioneering the agile methodology of software development back then. And we're not going to do the IBM waterfall where we just ta-da, everything works or it doesn't. At the end, we're going to build the components and then adjust the components as we build until we get to the final product. That's the whole principle of agile. You move faster, you move in parallel. You define your dependencies as you go. Right? Cool. It was really interesting when I was 25 years old, but now I've seen at other companies, and you hear it similarly everywhere you go, people are trying to bring agile methodology into everything that brand manufacturers might want to do in terms of we want to be agile in our approach to creating new innovations. We want to be agile in our approach to it within the context of a giant CPG. It's all good, but it's so important that you start with super razor clarity on what you're trying to get to at the end. Even if the end is the beginning because it's MVP, right? And you move forward.
Lauren Livak Gilbert (21:43):
I'm so glad you said that because my past experience on the brand side, we talked a lot about Agile and it was just all about be agile, have standups, and we were not focused on what we were trying to achieve. And I know we'll talk about this in a bit, but I relate that to also ai use AI use ai, but why are you using AI or why are you using Agile or what is the problem that you're trying to solve? And I think that is a super clear takeaway for anything e-commerce, right? What is the problem you're actually trying to solve and what are the people process technology that can help you get there? But if you're not razor focused, then being agile is just going to make you work more efficiently but not necessarily get you to where you need to go.
Jamie Schwab (22:25):
You can move fast
Lauren Livak Gilbert (22:28):
To what,
Jamie Schwab (22:29):
Yeah.
Peter Crosby (22:30):
Yeah. Lauren was heading us in the right direction and you mentioned at the top of the show, the new commercial model is a profitable one, and yet at the same time here we are talking about all the additional complexities that we're introducing into the business. Profitability is made up of doing things for less cost and making more money while you're at it, right? That's what I understand at least. And so if that's the case and we need to achieve that in an ever more competitive environment, then something needs to step in to transform the scale and scope at which we're able to do things and the continuous optimization. And that seems to be the promise of ai, but we're early days. So I would just love your perspective on is that a route to profitability? Can it address both sides of the balance sheet, if you will, and how do you think about finding your way along that path?
Jamie Schwab (23:40):
That's a really cool year as far as I'm concerned, right? Because it's been about a year that the new models have come out and we've created environments for ourselves to protect ourselves internally, corporately, and all that other good stuff. And Lauren, I couldn't help but thinking about the metaverse when you were talking about Agile.
Lauren Livak Gilbert (24:01):
Oh my gosh, I know, I
Jamie Schwab (24:03):
Know, but I think it's important, at least it's important sometimes to say it, right? The latest thing, this one is different than the last one.
Peter Crosby (24:13):
It
Jamie Schwab (24:14):
Just is. And as hard as it was to push back against the last one because I just always felt like we had foundational challenges. Again, this is not a Colgate statement, but of where I was at at the time, we had other fish to fry when it came to the metaverse, we had plenty of other problems and challenges that could yield tremendous results if we would just focus on some of the basics. Alright, so fast forward to the last year. First and foremost, I think the most important part about leveraging this technology and understanding what it all is does go back to those data foundations. So we're not going to go and repeat everything I said before about data integrity and volume, but garbage in, garbage out has applied from the get-go on everything in business. And so we should just understand and accept that that's a starting point.
(25:05):
So if you've got the right inputs for this thing, so then what we need to look at this whole thing as in terms of ai, gen, AI as an enabler, we talk about people, process and technology and how those three need to work together in harmony to produce optimal outcomes. Great. The capabilities that are unlocked with these advancements in the new technologies or the evolving technologies, they should speed process and they should free people overall. That's my vantage point on it. There's that old adage, we used to talk about another big CPG on my resume that I worked for, but I would've written a shorter letter, but I ran out of time. That's particularly impactful when it comes to what I think we have here in front of us and the benefits of ai, gen, AI helping people overall. You can't sacrifice clarity. You have to be extremely efficient to communicate in this world.
(26:11):
That communication could be internally writing a deck or it could be in copy optimization for the digital shelf, get into the meta tags and all that other stuff. There's a lot of clarity that you need to be able to have in your delivery of information, visuals, brand asset cues, all that good stuff. And as these months have turned into a year or so of living with gen AI in the toolkit, I don't know, my hypothesis from the start continues to prove itself out that it's going to be an enabler that can power productivity in ways we're going to have to continue to experiment to really find out about.
Peter Crosby (26:49):
So that's one side of the ledger, and I think you're absolutely right and that makes a ton of sense. But if we go to the other side of the ledger, which is the ability potential, and we're seeing it now in some places where AI can also propel growth through better SEO conversion and sorry, better SEO results and driving higher conversion by automated AI at the moment, improvements, and maybe that goes back to so clearly that's an efficiency play, but it's also like I could be ringing growth out of this. Do you believe in that side? Do you think it's anywhere where, does it have as much potential on the growth boosting side, do you think?
Jamie Schwab (27:42):
Short answer, yes. The potential is there. It really is, and that's where some of the experiments lie in terms of what we're doing. I think what we're at the forefront of is an explosion forward that's going to find a way to sort itself out in terms of how high is high when it comes to what it can unlock. When I think of it as an enabler of all those things that you just mentioned and more, it's filling a gap of work that can't get done right now based on the modern commercial construct. There's not enough people to even power how highly efficient this process can be overall. And so when it was back at dual brands, we owned Yankee Candle and there was a singular, we bought another candle brand. They had a couple of really amazing power skews and they had a couple of people in an office and they were just doing awesome work.
(28:50):
We were like, how do you do all this? They're like, well, this is what I do every day, right? Okay, well, makes a lot of sense. You have time to do exactly this, and it's yielding tremendous results. It sticks with me. When you've got bigger portfolios, wider skews, multiple categories, thousands of different iterations of basically your stuff globally, when you step back from the whole thing, if we do it perfectly against everything, the upsides, it's not linear when it all comes down to it. And then if everybody else is doing the same thing or trying to eventually they crack it themselves, then what happens with the technology? What's the technology going to tell you then? Right?
Peter Crosby (29:35):
Go to bed.
Jamie Schwab (29:36):
Yeah, go to
Peter Crosby (29:37):
Bed.
Jamie Schwab (29:37):
We got this, but you're not going to grow anymore, so it's over, right? So what's that next frontier, right? That's what I think is, it's the thing to always kind of caution against it's can you be the first mover? Can you solve for this for your businesses and what you have? Can you focus it enough to really deliver on those gaps that your current people process tech haven't enabled? If you can crack that awesome rate then, and that's what's fun being in my role, my position is we get to think through and work through both ends of that, both ends of the ledger. We get to say, what can this do for us right now? And then how can we do this at scale? And then where's that going to go next? But then we've got to not necessarily confuse everybody in the here and now with where the next goes.
Peter Crosby (30:34):
You have to talked about your company making AI clean to use and sort of coordinating it off, and you sort of have to do that with the future versus the present. It can be very distracting,
Jamie Schwab (30:49):
And I think that's one of the biggest challenges in e-com, right? When you go back to even the first question, there's so much that those of us that have been now, so I've been in what I've been doing this for about seven years, where I'm really focused on e-commerce after a dozen or so in more traditional brand marketing and CPG, where is this all going? How is this going to change? Some of us can really see where that future is going to take us, right? But what about right now? What do we have to do exactly right now that, and I won't name any names, but there's a lot of retail. People talk about retail media and retail media platforms, and now there's a new one over here and there's a new one over here, and I fly United Airlines, so you can't get mad at me, but I don't care about United Airlines Retail Media network. I do not care. Stop talking to me. I don't because the big guys that exist right now, we got a lot of fruit to pick over there. We got a lot that we can figure out how to do in terms of
Lauren Livak Gilbert (31:58):
That and a limited budget.
Jamie Schwab (32:00):
And how about that transition from a wartime metaphor to a gentle nutritional, we got a lot fruit to pick on. I love that side of things in general. And so how do we keep our focus right here? When in the back of my mind, I am thinking about that universe. I'm thinking about United and Delta and everybody else is going to do this different way to reach a consumer in a very heightened tightened space potentially as well on their app and in their plane seat, which sounds a whole lot like when I was a regular marketer, the pitch that they would make about advertising at the movie theater, you
Lauren Livak Gilbert (32:39):
Can't go anywhere.
Jamie Schwab (32:40):
Yeah, you're stuck. Here we are. So all that stuff, that's one of those big challenges. We're trying to drive profitability growth right now, maximize both of those two things right now. What's it going to take with all that complexity while having an eye towards the future? It's fun lot to think about.
Peter Crosby (33:00):
It's super fun. And the thing that keeps coming back up into my head, as you were talking about that cycle of, well, at some point everyone will be good at this and it's got to be loyalty. It's got to be because we aren't going to grow. We're not growing the population of shoppers and consumers considerably much in this, at least in mature markets. And so what I would imagine it is, how do I make more of a relationship be able to get more from all of the people that already know us? Does that ring true at all? Is that it
Jamie Schwab (33:37):
Does. It brings up a different element of my own philosophy, at least, is we talk about breaking down silos, right? We talk about collaboration across functions and all that other stuff, which has to happen. You will not succeed in this world if you don't do that. But at the same time, it helps me mentally to put myself into a certain mental silo, which what I describe as my role is to get the product into people's hands to use. And I think there is no greater tool to create loyalty than a positive, impactful product experience of all these wonderful things that we're selling across oral care, personal care, home care, pet skin health we're doing, we're producing products that help people overall. That's awesome. It makes me feel good. There's how I sleep at night. My role in that is to get those products into people's hands.
(34:39):
And the role of our partners in the organization is to ensure that that product experience is fantastic and delivers on what they say it's going to deliver on. Because then you'll build the loyalty, then you'll build the brand long term. And yes, we'll still run heavily branded assets in the marketplaces. And if you want to say TV and other stuff like that, yes, we'll build the equity. Absolutely. The product experience is king, and my role is to get that product into people's hands and to tear down all the inertia that gets in the way of trying to take things from a product detail page to someone's house. That's what we're trying to do and trying to get people to the product detail page overall.
Peter Crosby (35:24):
Well, that is the closing statement for president. Mic drop. Exactly. Boom. Jamie, thank you so much. First of all, well, A, I'm going to clip that out and play it to people and put an anthem behind it. That was truly cool. That's one of the things I love about this community is that people really get excited about the capacity to change how we work and to make it work better for the consumer and to win on those terms. And I just love it. Thank you for doing that.
Jamie Schwab (36:05):
Thank you guys for having me. We had the prep call and I told you in that call, I said, listen, I always listen to what you guys are doing and talking about. And so just even having a prep call with you guys was exciting for me. So thank you. You guys are doing such a service to those that are out there that on behalf of them, I want to thank you guys because for anybody who listens, knows the value and it's immeasurable because a lot of times we're out there on our own.
Peter Crosby (36:33):
Well, that's exactly why we started the DSI. It's why Lauren puts more energy than I sometimes want her to, into making it happen because she's going to kill herself. We love it. And I also though do need to thank you. When you said Yankee candle, I grew up on Cape Cod, and that was where in Hyannis where the original, I grew up in Austria, but that's where the original Yankee candle factory was. And I'll just never forget, it's like a childhood memory, the smell of wax in the air, and it was like this wonderful, amazing, as opposed to being near the Cape Cod potato chip factory, which became this very sort of feted oily smell over as the day went on. But Yankee Candle was always this beautiful kind of lovely experience. So just thanks for bringing that little nostalgia back for me now. New Alon, that's the way we go. Again, Jamie, we're so appreciative. A number of things that you said in here, we'll get clipped and shared out in addition to the whole episode. And we're truly grateful for you giving back to the DSI at
Lauren Livak Gilbert (37:49):
Me. Alright,
Peter Crosby (37:50):
All good. Thank you.
Lauren Livak Gilbert (37:52):
Thank you, Jamie.
Peter Crosby (37:54):
Thanks again to Jamie for all the wisdom, more wisdom on tap at digitalshelfinstitute.org. Stay on top of it all by becoming a member. Thanks for being part of our community.