Transcript:
Peter Crosby:
Welcome to Unpacking the Digital Shelf where we explore brand manufacturing in the digital age.
Peter Crosby:
Hi everyone, Peter Crosby here from the Digital Shelf Institute. When I heard that Outer, the premium outdoor furniture company, had achieved 1000% growth in no small part through customer-hosted sessions in their backyards during a pandemic, I knew we needed to find out the strategy behind it. Terry Lin, an industrial designer plus former Walmart.com merchandiser and Co-Founder & Chief Design Officer at Outer, joined Lauren and me to talk nanoinfluencers, Shark Tank, and the ABCDEs of company culture that is creating a new global brand in outdoor furniture and an innovator in user-generated content.
Peter Crosby:
So, Terry, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast. Your approach at Outer for driving growth and brand power through community is so inspiring and powerful. So we really appreciate you coming on to chat about it.
Terry Lin:
Of course. Thank you for having me and allowing me to tell our story.
Peter Crosby:
Yeah. Let's just start with the mission of Outer. What drove you to start the company? I mean, there's a lot of outdoor furniture companies out there. So why did the world need Outer? And what inspired you?
Terry Lin:
That's a really good question. It actually all started... I know the exact date and time. It was June 30th, 2017, 9:55 PM.
Peter Crosby:
Very specific.
Terry Lin:
And I know that because Jake, my co-founder and the CEO, sent me a cold LinkedIn message and it was about one sentence and it says, hey, I really like your background. I'm looking to do something. And he kind of described it as the Casper of outdoor furniture.
Terry Lin:
It piqued my interest. So 11 minutes later I responded like, hey, sounds interesting. Would love to chat. And the reason I know that date and how it's burned in my memory is because that was my birthday. So I felt like the stars were aligned. And I'm sure for many of you, you get a lot of solicitations on LinkedIn.
Terry Lin:
And if you hit it, all of a sudden, someone is trying to sell you something. And it just so happened that I accepted the cold message. And we started talking. And going back to your question about why does the world need another outdoor furniture company? Well, I don't think it does.
Terry Lin:
And when Jake and I started talking, I was like, well, tell me what you're thinking. And he started talking about some ideas about what we wanted to do. And he does have a family factory that does outdoor furniture manufacturing. So in terms of the vertical alignment, it made sense. So I said, so what is it that you're thinking about?
Terry Lin:
And he originally talked about just examples of things. And I think the example top of mind was at the time Away Luggage was really popular and they had the portable batteries that you put into the luggage. It's like, well, maybe the outdoor furniture, if you think about the space, doesn't have power.
Terry Lin:
What if we did solar power? He's like, I don't know if that's what it is. If we really were to do something, we actually need to figure out what is wrong with the stuff today. And the thesis was that there has been very little innovation in outdoor furniture. Everyone just kind of copies everybody else.
Terry Lin:
And I say that from just direct knowledge of my past experience where I would design furniture and I would just look at what others are doing. I would look at inspiration and I would just design something that looked pretty, that had basically the right materials at the right price point and the right aesthetic.
Terry Lin:
And that's all I focused on. And I do think a lot of companies still work that way. And I said, if we were to do something, it's because we want to solve a problem. What is the problem? I don't really know, but if we keep talking, I'm sure we'll figure it out. And that's how we started.
Terry Lin:
So we said anytime we want to launch something, there's the what, the why, and the how. The what is very easy. Go look at any outdoor furniture company and you can see a whole catalog of products that we could design. And then the next question that we always talk about is why.
Terry Lin:
Why does the world need another thing? What is wrong with it? So I've started talking about it in terms of anytime we got new ideas, I say, what is the Seinfeld moment? And the Seinfeld moment is... And I'm just going to guess that maybe you have watched it, but it's like in the beginning and the end of the TV show, Seinfeld, he always has a monologue.
Terry Lin:
And he always starts by saying like, have you ever noticed? Why is it that... And it's just really obvious things that happen in everyday life that are pain points. And I said, we need to figure out the Seinfeld moments of every single product that we designed.
Terry Lin:
And if we can figure out what that is, then it's worthy of actually doing the how. So that was a big reason of why we started. We didn't want to be another outdoor furniture company. We really wanted to focus on trying to solve problems that had otherwise not been solved.
Peter Crosby:
And so, Terry, as you thought about those problems, one of the things that I've seen has come out in the way in which you connect with current customers and with future customers is such a sense of community. And I was wondering, one, could you sort of describe what you've done there.
Peter Crosby:
But also was that one of the problems you wanted to solve or was that just kind of, all right, now we're solving these furniture problems or use problems. Now we need to figure out how to connect with the consumers who are interested in solving that problem.
Terry Lin:
Yeah. I was going to say, and then we're going to be editing it, one thing I forgot to mention was kind of the bigger picture of getting people to spend more time outside. And I was going to say a big motivation was I thought about my childhood.
Terry Lin:
I grew up in suburban Delaware and on the weekends, I would be out somewhere and my parents would not know where I was. And it would be entire afternoons, if not entire days. I'd come back muddy because I was playing in a creek.
Terry Lin:
And I just think about how much time I spent outside versus how much time kids spend outside these days. And it's getting shorter and shorter and it's for many reasons, it's for climate change, it's for distractions with digital devices, lots of things.
Terry Lin:
And a big reason for doing it is how do we actually design products to improve outdoor living? So I wanted to actually get that in there. Going back to your question about the way we are doing it, we call it the Neighborhood Showroom. And such a big piece of what we do has to do with social proof.
Terry Lin:
And when we launched, we knew that to design a premium product, meaning something that's going to last more than anything else, it's going to be expensive. And when you think about the quadrant of people's trust and the price of things, there's low risk low cost, high risk high cost, low risk high cost, and then the last, which is high risk low cost.
Terry Lin:
And we realized in that quadrant, we were targeting the high risk high cost category. And in doing so, how does a new company come out with a premium product and expect people to believe everything that we claim? So in doing that, we said, we need to actually have social proof and we need to do it by actually having people be able to see, touch, and feel the product.
Terry Lin:
Our product is very much about that. And then we realized that, well, we don't have the money to actually open up a retail store. And even opening up a retail store doesn't really serve our purpose. And it doesn't serve our purpose because while it may be able to target a very localized area, our addressable market is any homes with backyards.
Terry Lin:
So one store in one location just really didn't work. So we thought a lot of it had to do with we just needed to do it. We actually didn't have the money to do it. So we said, social proof is important. How can we do it?
Terry Lin:
We know that with the rise of Yelp and with Amazon reviews, that reviews are now used in the beginning, middle, and end of almost every purchase of anything that you do. And so we said we need to begin to seed this thing, have people use it.
Terry Lin:
And even more, we realized that people may question things like, well, and you can think about all the different areas of the country. I live in a hot area that is really dry with high UV sun and things break down.
Terry Lin:
Or sorry. High UV resistance versus I live in Seattle where it's really rainy and wet or I live in Boston where four seasons, like big winters, how do I know this product is going to survive?
Peter Crosby:
I'm feeling that pain right, Terry.
Terry Lin:
So the idea was if we can build this out effectively, now it's a bit of a test too. We can prove that the product that we've designed can withstand all of the different things that mother nature can throw at it. It doesn't matter what part of the country.
Terry Lin:
So that was a big piece of it. And by beginning to have it all around the country, the idea was, people might not trust us, Outer. But if we say, hey, we can tell you all the things, how we've designed it. But why don't we connect you with someone that lives either in your area or someone that has your sense of style. We talk about spaces, places, and styles.
Terry Lin:
Those are the three things that people care about. And if we're able to connect customers with people that are aligned with those three things, then it's another step for them to feel comfortable with their purchasing decision. And that's a lot of what Neighborhood Showroom is about.
Lauren Livak:
And your approach makes it so human focused on the customer and the people who are actually making the purchase, which is really exciting. And to your point about being a new company, you grew 1000% percent during the pandemic. Is that accurate?
Terry Lin:
We did, yeah. We were very, very fortunate. We definitely were on the right side of the pandemic.
Lauren Livak:
That's really exciting. And then to your point about the Neighborhood Showroom, how did people start to react? Did it naturally take off as you started kind of seeding that and having people make reviews and talk about their style. Did you have to help promote that sense of community or did it just take off naturally?
Terry Lin:
I think as you think about the growth of any company, there are the early adopters that just believe in the brand. And as we talk to our customers, we wanted to incentivize them at first. And incentivizing them was we would pay them for every visit.
Terry Lin:
And I was going to say one more thing I forgot to mention, the Seinfeld moment of the Neighborhood Showroom was this, it was that why is it that when you're looking at outdoor furniture, you're looking at in an indoor showroom. The indoor showroom is climate controlled, the person that's trying to sell it to you probably doesn't own it.
Terry Lin:
It probably hasn't seen sun or rain or bird poop. So how do you actually know that it works? So that was our Seinfeld moment of why we wanted to do it, which is if you're going to buy outdoor furniture, why aren't you looking at it outside?
Peter Crosby:
Seinfeld would appreciate that bird poop was involved for sure.
Terry Lin:
Probably would have. Lauren, so going back to your question, we knew that we needed to incentivize at first. And in Year 1, as we started onboarding our Neighborhood Showroom host, we really wanted to start in the LA area just because we could actually have a direct connection with them.
Terry Lin:
And as we started getting applications, the really interesting thing was these people did not need the money at all. The thing is expensive, yes. Their homes are really nice. So a lot of the questions we asked are like, well, why are you doing this? And we got a lot of answers.
Terry Lin:
One was I want to teach my kids how to be able to interact with strangers. Another one was I work from home and I don't have a whole lot of interaction with people. So it gives me an opportunity to meet like-minded people. This was actually a really interesting one.
Terry Lin:
We have a host who lives in Tribeca. And Jake and I went and visited him. He's like, hey, we would love to see your showroom. And so we went to New York and we got to his apartment building. He's like, come up to my floor. So we did. He owned the entire floor.
Terry Lin:
And he is like, "Do you want to see the showroom?" I was like, "Yeah, we'd love to see it." He was like, "Well, I have the entire roof." So he had the entire 14th floor too. So he obviously did not need-
Lauren Livak:
Wow.
Terry Lin:
... $50. That's typically what we pay for a showing, which is about 20 minutes. So, again, we asked the question. I was like, well, why are you doing this? He is like, I think it's really interesting what you're doing. I just want to be part of it.
Terry Lin:
So the motivations that we realized, while I'm sure some of it had to do with incentivizing, others had to do with us doing something really interesting, us having to do something with building community. So it was just interesting to hear that the motivation wasn't necessarily what we thought it was.
Peter Crosby:
It's just amazing to me that during a pandemic, people would have people over and at a rate that would push that kind of growth at your company. I just think that's an amazing just human concept that was happening at times where people were doing everything they could to not be with people.
Peter Crosby:
But there was something about this experience. And obviously, it's outdoors. So it feels more safe than having somebody into your apartment, I guess. But I just think that's astonishing.
Terry Lin:
We have a host. Her name is Kathy R. I won't tell her last name, but I will tell her that I'm talking about it, who lives in Mt. Juliet, Tennessee. And she became a host and just had a lot of great conversations with her. We shared pictures of our kids, her pets, her backyard.
Terry Lin:
And she wanted to do a showing during the pandemic and she really wanted to do it. So she says, you know what, for the people that wanted to see it, they're about 30 minutes away. I will sit inside my house and have my window open. They came over, they sat, they chatted.
Terry Lin:
And then after it was done, the customers bought and they sent a note to Kathy who sent it to me and said, we really loved hanging out with you. We would love to actually get together with you when the pandemic is over. So she shared that with me and I said, next time you get together, whatever you do is on Outer.
Peter Crosby:
And have we figured out when the pandemic is over? Because I'm not really clear. Oh, man. But moving on from that, that's a whole different podcast, do you feel like-
Lauren Livak:
It's really exciting here. I just wanted to say one thing.
Peter Crosby:
Yeah, of course.
Lauren Livak:
I think it's really exciting to see that people naturally want to have a community. I think that's brought out so much more with the pandemic and the concept of community with brands and with products and with the kind of consumer is such an important, and I think valuable lesson that you have really proven out where people want to talk to other people who are in the same boat.
Lauren Livak:
They want to talk to people who own the product, who are experiencing that themselves. And I love that community is becoming a forefront of a lot of conversations because I think, Terry, you have proven it is kind of the future of how we're talking about our products and selling our products, and it brings back that human element, which is just so impactful.
Terry Lin:
Yeah. And there's a concept that I've been talking about a lot in terms of who we are as a company. And when you get a chance, look up the Hermann grid, H-E-R-M-A-N-N. And it's someone from the 1800s that discovered an optical illusion.
Terry Lin:
And it basically is a black and white grid. And when you look at it, it's actually not there, but you see these little gray circles between the grids. So there's these little connections that you see that your eye just makes. And I realized that so much of what we do is about that.
Terry Lin:
It's not about the product, it's about those inner connections that you make. And when I talk about Outer, that's what it is. We sell outdoor furniture. We really are moving towards outdoor living.
Terry Lin:
And it's really not about the product itself. It's about the experiences that you enable and those memories that you make. And it's like that Hermann grid that really kind of captures it for me.
Peter Crosby:
First of all, I, of course, looked it up while you were talking because I can't stand to not know about something. And it really is crazy. And the connection dots kind of make my eyes bug out. It's a really crazy illusion. But those connections are super clear.
Peter Crosby:
And I just wondered, Terry, if you were to step away from your sole focus on Outer and think, wow, this sort of community-based selling could work for so many categories.
Peter Crosby:
If you were to consult on that, once you're done with Outer and it's this amazing global success, what would you think are the essential required elements that need to be in place for something like this to work for a brand? Does it almost need to be a premium thing?
Terry Lin:
Yeah.
Peter Crosby:
You know what I mean? What are those things that you think would be necessary?
Terry Lin:
I don't think we would've been where we were unless we had... There's social proof, of course, there is social media, and there's the rise of the sharing economy. And like pre Airbnb and Uber and Lyft, would you have gotten into a stranger's car and driven wherever you were or stayed on someone's couch? You wouldn't.
Lauren Livak:
No.
Terry Lin:
And the sharing of economy companies have really done a lot to build trust in that. So I think that was really... We had a foundation that was already built where it was not like we were trying to build trust around that.
Terry Lin:
And I think for our category, it's a little easier because at least what I've just mentioned, other than Airbnb where you are getting someone to come into your home, for our category, for the most part, people have side gates and you don't actually have to go through the home versus if you are trying to do some social proof with a mattress company and have them lay on your bed.
Terry Lin:
That probably [inaudible 00:19:17]. But I do think as we continue to progress with the importance of UGC and social proof that it's going to be able to kind of go into basically all categories. And what I think is in the future where you have your micro influencers and macro influencers, so that's usually defined by how many followers they have.
Terry Lin:
I've been calling it nano influencers, which is maybe it's an influencer that is part of your community that knows something very, very, very specific. And just that idea of experts is important and it goes all the way from an influencer of 10 to influencers of millions.
Terry Lin:
So I just think there's a huge opportunity to do that where there are experts across the board in every single field that will continue to drive that. And in doing so, it doesn't matter how they're able to do it, whether it's in person, online, whatever it is. I just think that is going to be a big part of the shopping journey.
Peter Crosby:
Do you find some of those amazing nano influencers? And then are you finding ways or any desire even to turn them into micro influencers or macro influencers? Are you finding sort of golden nuggets that are just human beings that are so passionate that you want to put them to more work out in the world?
Terry Lin:
We haven't done that, but it really just comes down to their ambition to do something like that. And I'll give you an example. I think of influencers as the ones that are not always there to promote something where a brand pays them.
Terry Lin:
And I'll give you an example and it's an example that I used in my past. So I have young kids. And when you think about young kids, there's always something that is happening and you're trying to figure it out. So I like the idea of teething.
Terry Lin:
With teething, you're going to use some sort of soothing gel or you get these things that you freeze in the refrigerator. But when I think of an influencer, it is not like, I am going to promote the thing that, one, I believe in, but two, that someone pays me for.
Terry Lin:
But three, I think the part is, well, I want to know some DIY tricks that really don't cost anything. So in the example that I'm giving of my kid is teething. What should I do? When you think of a digital shelf, usually it's like, I am looking for soothing gels or teething gels.
Terry Lin:
But really what the customer is looking for is a solution. And that is just one element of a solution. So on that shelf, and just using this as an example, could be that you dip a cold burp cloth that you put in the freezer in pickle juice and have the kids suck on it.
Terry Lin:
And that is an example of what I think of as successful influencers, where it's not always about the one thing they're trying to promote, but really about the right things. I'm trying to show you that while I'm motivated by many things, I'm motivated by showing you the right things, the best solutions.
Peter Crosby:
Yeah. That authenticity, you can't fake it. And you can smell the inauthenticity a mile away-
Terry Lin:
That's right.
Peter Crosby:
... or closer. That's fascinating.
Lauren Livak:
And it comes back to people wanting to talk to other people who have been through it, right? I don't have children myself, but if I did, I would want to ask another parent who was like, you've been through it. Tell me the tricks so I don't have to go search for them online and take hours and do it.
Lauren Livak:
So it comes back to that human element, which is just so exciting to see. So in September you scored $50 million in Series B Funding after receiving $10.5 million in Series A Funding in January. So first, that's amazing. Congratulations.
Peter Crosby:
Thank you.
Lauren Livak:
And second, how have you prioritized using that to invest in growth and to the maturity of the company and just the overall mission?
Terry Lin:
Yeah. Basically when we were doing our Series B road show and talking to investors, that's always a question that investors will ask. It's like, what are you going to do with all this money? And if you don't have an answer, then there's not a whole lot of reason to give it to you. But we were really clear what we wanted to do.
Terry Lin:
One, we cared a lot about brand, channel, and market expansion. So I think we're starting to get there when people think Outer. I know when I get Intel from our competition, we have to watch what Outer is doing. So going to new channels.
Terry Lin:
We're thinking about other ways of doing IRL. And when I say market expansion, we are starting to expand beyond the borders of the U.S. We launched into Australia. And a big reason for that is I call it, we're chasing the sun. So our dynamics are that our winter is their summer and vice versa here.
Terry Lin:
So that's one, we care about the expansion. Two, it really is about continuing to build our team. And then three, I'm most excited about just because my world is R&D and continuing to accelerate our products and trying to go a lot more deep into material science of what we do.
Peter Crosby:
Yeah. Terry, I had seen when I looked at your background, you spent five years at Walmart e-commerce and merchandising consumables and health, fitness, and outdoors. I was wondering what of that experience do you bring to what you're working on at Outer? And what experience do you leave behind?
Terry Lin:
Yeah. When I think about my career, I think the times of growth are the ones where you suck at something. And it's fair to say that at least I know I sucked for the first few years at trying to figure out the merchandising side of things.
Terry Lin:
And really, I had to reprogram my brain, which is heavily right-brained because I'm an industrial designer to a company like Walmart e-com where it's very much about data driven decisions. So I had to reprogram my brain and not be like, hey, I have a great idea. We should do this. Wait, show us why.
Terry Lin:
So a lot of my experience at Walmart was really about that where we are a company where all of our sales today happened for the most part online. So just understanding the mechanics of e-commerce and understanding the shopping journey.
Terry Lin:
Understanding how to make the experience better. Thinking about the entry points of how a customer comes in. Looking at the growth. So I think Walmart helped me kind of build that muscle, which I honestly did not have at all.
Terry Lin:
So a lot of that has kind of helped build out my thinking. And, of course, I'm not doing it. We just have a really talented team that is able to execute on it. And I'm just good at asking questions more than anything these days.
Peter Crosby:
Well, that's so much a part of a test and learn, pivot quickly, be able to take in just enough data to guide a decision, but not too much data where you're always sitting around waiting for data.
Peter Crosby:
I would imagine at the pace that you are trying to grow and also as innovative as you are, a lot of it, you have to sort of test the wind and then move, I would imagine.
Terry Lin:
Yeah, exactly.
Peter Crosby:
So when you're looking for talent to build a company like that, one, everyone we talk to these days is just talking about how difficult it is to sort of attract and retain talent. But also, what is that personality type that is required to sort of be in the stage that you're in?
Terry Lin:
Yeah. Hopefully, I don't mess this up too bad. It's something that Jake came up with, and it's the ABCDE when we talk about our team. A is ambitious. So when we interview, we are looking for the ABCDE. A ambitious.
Terry Lin:
B, which is, I think, the most important thing is benevolent. C is curious. D is driven. And E is ego free. And when we're talking to people, we are always looking for the ABCDE of these people. And I'd like to think that the thing that we prioritize most is benevolence.
Terry Lin:
And I say that because we try to do things where we are not trying to talk bad about anybody, our competitors or anything. We never do.
Terry Lin:
And being able to be successful in a way where you're not trying to cut people down is such a big part of it. And when I think of our people, that benevolence is probably the driving thing that we care the most about.
Peter Crosby:
I love that. And I think for so many people today in the great resignation or whatever we're calling it these days, that sense of purpose well expressed and then proven out in a daily experience, that's an attraction, I would imagine, for people that really care about how they're going to spend their day.
Terry Lin:
That's right.
Peter Crosby:
That's very cool. Thank you for sharing that with us.
Terry Lin:
Of course.
Peter Crosby:
I really appreciate it.
Terry Lin:
I was going to say, every month I do basically a new hire and talk about Outer. And it has not changed since we started. And I always say, when I make decisions for Outer, why we started Outer, it's not necessarily...
Terry Lin:
The main driving thing is I look through things through the eyes of my children. I have a three-year-old and a seven-year-old. And it's like, if they're looking at me, are they going to think I'm doing the right thing or the wrong thing?
Terry Lin:
And I need to make sure that I train them to make better decisions. So when they are at the age where they are the caretakers of our planet, they see that the decisions I made, hopefully they were good, but at least based on the data that I had that they were the best that I could make. And when I talk to the team, it's about that.
Terry Lin:
It's like, think about, if you have kids, what kind of world do you want to leave for them? And that's what we want. We want to make better decisions where it might be not moving the ball further down the field, but we are moving in the right direction rather than the wrong direction.
Peter Crosby:
I wish the whole world would adopt that approach because it's very clarifying when you think about it in that way. So I don't know whether you get this question at your new hire meetings. People may think it's not the right question to ask.
Peter Crosby:
All right. So you guys went on Shark Tank. So I have to hear about that experience. That was 2019. You and Jake were on. So most importantly, do the Sharks actually like each other and talk to each other during the breaks? Or are they just done, walking away?
Peter Crosby:
What is that experience like? And sort of, why did you decide to use that route? And does it continue to influence anything you're doing? Or was it just a sort of a moment in time?
Terry Lin:
Yeah. Let me see. I'll try to break that down to each of your questions.
Peter Crosby:
Thank you.
Terry Lin:
I'll start with why we decided to do it. There are three ways that you get on Shark Tank. One, you apply online. Two, you go to these casting calls. And then three, the producers reach out to you. It was actually not on our roadmap at all.
Terry Lin:
And anyone that has ever looked for outdoor furniture, if you search anything outdoor furniture, you will quickly find out on social media that we will start finding you. And I think that's what happened with the producers. They found us. They thought what we were doing was interesting.
Terry Lin:
And they reached out like, hey, we really love what you're doing. We'd love to see if you want to apply. We debated a lot about it. And one of the things that we were worried about was do we want to be seen on a TV brand? Which is the biggest thing that scared us.
Terry Lin:
And as we talked about it like, you know what, it doesn't hurt for us to go down the process and actually was quite resource intensive. And it came down to like, if we make it, great. And if we don't, at least we tried. If we make it, we can always say no.
Terry Lin:
And we said at the very least, it is essentially free marketing. It's like a million dollars worth of marketing because the show was on, I think, 24/7 on CNBC. So we said that alone is worth it. So we went through the exercise.
Terry Lin:
And I want to say that the statistics are in general, about 40,000 people. There are 40,000 applicants. Out of the 40,000, about 130 get flown to LA for a long weekend, like four or five days. And they go through the pitches with the producers.
Terry Lin:
And then out of the 130, about 90 actually make it onto the season. So we were lucky to have gotten all the way from the 40,000 down to the 90. And we said, if we got that far, it's probably worth it. It was worth the effort.
Peter Crosby:
Go for it. Free marketing.
Terry Lin:
Exactly. So that was the big thing. And we said the one thing that we care the most about is that we stick to what our ask is. And if you do any research, you'll see that oftentimes the deals are not very good. They're actually quite bad and it's because you're on TV and you want to make a deal because you want to make a deal with a Shark.
Terry Lin:
We stuck to our guns and we said exactly what we wanted to ask for in terms of equity in exchange for whatever we were asking for. We stuck with that, which is great. We actually did not get to meet the Sharks until we walked onto the set.
Peter Crosby:
Wow.
Terry Lin:
And the crazy thing is we didn't see them. We got to do a preview. They basically said we had about 10 minutes. They showed us the set. And in that 10 minutes, you have to walk. There are going to be cameras everywhere.
Terry Lin:
Make sure that you don't have any jumpy movements because you're going to see the booms and things moving around and you don't want to be surprised because that does not look good for TV. And then you have to land on a spot on the rug, but don't look at it.
Terry Lin:
And that was basically the cue that we have. And then at that point you do your two-minute pitch. But we didn't see the Sharks until we actually pitched. And then I think most pitches last about 45 minutes to an hour. And that's where we actually got to see their interactions. I do think they're friends.
Terry Lin:
I think they have a lot of fun on the show. I think in anything interesting, it's about the creative tension, right? Who wants to be able to watch something where people agree on everything? And there's a lot of tension in there.
Terry Lin:
You could see a Shark being like, that is a bad decision. I am not going to do that. Or you think about someone like Daymond, he is always about the underdog and he was not into us because we had to raise money. So I do think they get along.
Terry Lin:
I think that creative tension really helps them all grow and it makes for interesting TV where you could see there's disagreement. They laugh. They kind of steal each other's ideas. But it was a really interesting experience.
Terry Lin:
I remember, usually you think about the mental prep that you have, especially for something where you go on national TV. The mental prep that Jake and I had was as we were getting ready in the ready room. You have 30 seconds and you're going to walk out.
Terry Lin:
And that's all the prep that we had. And we just said walk out. And then we did it. And I remember afterwards, Lori's husband came into our trailer and he started showing pictures of what happened as a recap for us.
Terry Lin:
He took pictures while we were doing it. And I said to him, I was like, "Wow, did the Sharks check out the stuff before we went in?" He's like, "No, Terry, that was during your presentation." And I forgot it completely.
Peter Crosby:
Wow. That's hilarious.
Terry Lin:
So tunnel vision that I don't even remember what happened because I was thinking about all the things that we had to remember. So basically it's like taking an SAT test where you have to know 100% of the stuff, but they're probably going to only ask you like 10%, but you have to be prepared for anything they ask.
Peter Crosby:
Oh my God, I'm getting anxious just listening to you talking about it.
Terry Lin:
Same here.
Peter Crosby:
Well, Terry, from the ridiculous back to the sublime, what you guys are creating at Outer, that idea of community-based marketing and the humanity of it. I think the world of it and then the culture that you bring to it.
Peter Crosby:
So I just want to thank you very much for talking about this new wave of being a company and how it shows up in the world. I think it's really exciting. I can't wait to see where you go next.
Terry Lin:
Thank you. It feels natural. When we started, it was like, well, this is the way it should be. We always say be the leaders that you wish you had. And that's what we're trying to do.
Peter Crosby:
Yeah. That culture and particularly, I would imagine, with products that are so connected to people's lives, that really matters. That really is a distinction that I think people are willing to pay for. And it certainly seems to be proving out that way. So congratulations and thanks for joining us.
Terry Lin:
Thank you so much for having me.
Lauren Livak:
Yes, thank you.
Peter Crosby:
Thanks to Terry for joining us. In case you're searching for their site, you can find it at liveouter.com. Please be a nano influencer yourself and share this episode with your colleagues. And thanks as always for being part of our community.
