TRANSCRIPT
Peter:
Welcome to unpacking the digital shelf where we explore brand manufacturing in the digital age. Hi, Peter Crosby here from the digital shelf Institute, but the onslaught of niche brands, the movement from mass market to the market of masses and the impact of digital on omni-channel commerce. What it means to be a brand today is rapidly changing Andrea Lee VP of strategy. At ideal click joined me and Rob to discuss how brand leaders need to re-examine, how brands are built and grown for the digital first omni-channel shelf.
Peter:
So, first of all, Andrea, thank you so much for joining us. I remember back to when you spoke at one of our early digital shelf summits and your, uh, your session was the number one best reviewed session of our entire gathering. So welcome. Yay. Happy to have you on the podcast. Um, thanks for having me. I want to, I just want to leap in, you had told me that you were having an internal kind of panel for your own staff's kind of edification and gathering a bunch of thought leaders to talk about what it means to be a brand today. And so I wanted to just start there sort of your viewpoint coming out of that session and, and what you heard and, and how, how you came away feeling like that's changed over time.
Andrea:
Yeah, I mean, I think there's, well, I guess just to kind of start we're all in the business of building brands online in some shape or another kind of in this support ecosystem that we're all in. Um, you know, we certainly work for the manufacturer community and we spend a lot of time trying to promote grants and, and maintain them and keep them profitable and, and all of the things. Um, so we had an internal thought leadership panel on what is, what is, what does it mean to be a brand today and how has that changed? And it's something I've been thinking a lot about, especially as we now have so many retailer ad platforms that are popping up every day and, you know, retailers are embracing private label, I think kind of in like a way that they haven't in the past, it's looking more like brand building versus sort of the budget, private label, um, the types of brands that you used to see in the past.
Andrea:
And, you know, with social, you're starting to see all these D to C brands come to fruition and there's just like, there's a lot, there are a lot of ways to be an important brand that has traction and has a following. And, and I think they're different than what they used to be maybe 20 years ago. And I think one of the reasons I've been thinking a lot about this is a lot of our larger manufacturer clients are maybe still approaching it in the traditional way. And I think that can still work, but I also think you really need to be incorporating some of these newer, um, concepts in brand building to really be successful and especially to be successful online.
Peter:
Yeah. It really is the evolution. Um, the evolution of the experience is starting to be what it, what it means to be a brand. You know, what are the experiences that are engaging your consumers, right? What, what is it that you're seeing change? That's you kind of said sort of the traditional way. What do you feel like, uh, experience is experience a part of sort of this new requirement?
Andrea:
I think experience is certainly a part of it, but I feel like the ambitions of the brands have changed or have many brands have changed. So maybe a brand used to aspire to be a billion dollar brand or an, and I think actually most brands, um, you know, maybe in, in the past kind of aspire to be really big. And I think now, and especially with digital and especially with e-commerce where you don't have a buyer making assortment decisions, brands can often aspire to be small and to only cover a specific niche or a specific category and be like a hundred million dollar brand. And I think those ambitions changing, present a really different competitive set to the more established brands and particularly established these CPGs. And we're certainly seeing that in our data, you know, as we're looking at sheriff search for our clients and especially on Amazon, you're able to see, you know, just a lot of smaller niche players, um, that, that have a really strong following.
Andrea:
So I think, I think one thing that we're seeing change a lot are the brand ambitions over time. I think now we're seeing, uh, maybe, uh, maybe brands, um, aspiring to be smaller and to, to really address a specific segment of the market and address it really well. So that's, that's kind of one thing that we're seeing, I think there, the other is that there's this, um, idea of, you know, now with digital, just the sky's the limit, you know, you can, you can be an Instagrammer. And, and in fact there are a number of examples of pretty famous beauty Instagrammers who have then gone on to launch their own beauty products. And, you know, the extension of the BR the brand is an extension of the person, which is entirely new territory, you know, in the last 10 years. So, and you can reach customers and target them in new ways and kind of, again, going back to that concept of a niche.
Andrea:
So I think that's changing a lot. And then I think the last thing that seems really different to me is this concept of brand accountability. So the customer gets to be the vote, you know, they're voting with their dollars, but they're also voting with their reviews and with their social media endorsements, or, you know, potentially social media complaints about, about the brand. And everything's a brand like a delivery service can be a brand and a product can be a brand. And, um, you know, uh, an airline can be a brand. All these things are brands and, and that accountability I think is really important and not necessarily just accountability from like a corporate social responsibility or sustainability perspective, although I think those are also really important, but accountable to customer feedback and, and being a part of that conversation. So I think that kind of customer voting thing is, is a lot different than it was in the past. And so I think the brands who can kind of take these three areas that have changed a lot and really leverage them to drive success for themselves are the ones that are going to win. And the ones that are still approaching from like a perspective of research development go to market heavy marketing and not a lot of customer interaction along the way. Um, and maybe not seeing some of these smaller competitors or are at risk.
Rob:
Yeah. That whole, that model of the research development go to market big launch, but also you're guaranteed to have a certain amount of sales because you own a fair amount of shelf space through your retail partners and right. And that, which is not a model that's accessible to upstarts is, is a tightly integrated model. And it, it's, it's kinda interesting. Like I, I've been reading a lot about, um, Intel lately for various reasons. And Intel is in the microprocessor space. Similarly, vertically integrated, it owns the foundries. It does the design, um, and so on and so forth, um, like a Procter and gamble or Unilever or whomever is the same sort of thing. They develop their own products. They own the factories they produce, they produce their own products. What we're talking about now for branding is a lot of these things are being decoupled, which allows these brands to have less ambition. So you, so, so the factory can be in Vietnam somewhere and you can use Alibaba to find it. Um, the, your, the go to market model is not integrated through one P retail. It's some kind of mix of, so Amazon is a three-piece seller or whatever, and then you really, your market is a thousand true fans, which is usually a demographic that could be too small for a retailer to even care about or target. Right. But exactly,
Andrea:
I totally agree, Rob. And I think, um, like disconnecting those things also helps the brands move faster. So they don't have to have a linear process of saying, okay, research and development, you know, um, go to market D S supply chain distribution, and then layer on marketing. They can be hitting all of those things kind of at the same time, it can be more iterative.
Rob:
There's. Lou Gerstner had a book in the nineties. Lou Gerstner was the, um, transformative CEO of IBM took IBM near bankruptcy to, you know, once again, a global, global BMF. And he wrote a book guy, something like how to make elephants dance or how to teach an elephant to dance or something like that about, about the, the, the IBM shift from mainframes to global services effectively and, and, you know, reforming a company of that size. Have you seen any really large manufacturing brands, look this in the, I understand the decoupling of these processes and start going after it, or is it more like, Oh, they see socials as a thing. They invest in the social media marketing manager. Oh, they see retail media as a thing they invest in, in a, in a retail media strategy. And so on what were who's who's who's done this transformatively.
Andrea:
Well, I don't know. I think that what transformative might look like for a large CPG or a traditional brand, um, is acquisition. So they, I think I see a lot of, um, companies like P and G is a great example where they're constantly looking for smaller upstart brands and, and getting, you know, getting those niche players are getting access to that, those new ways to market through an acquisition. But I think the challenge with that, I haven't seen it done like super what I would call it, like superbly. They either buy too early and then they really are focused on ramping the Britain. They need it to be a billion dollar brand. And so they sort of kill it. And I'm not talking about P and G specifically, but kind of general general strategy, you know, they buy too early and then they have to scale it and then they kill it.
Andrea:
Or what we're seeing with, um, one of our clients is they, they buy the upstart brand. That's really kind of nailed those, you know, those three things that I talked about around embracing digital and accountability and, you know, ambition. Um, and then they tap, they, they tax that brand so much with the rest of the organization, trying to figure out how they're doing it and how they can do it that way too. I mean, the they're just this one client of ours, the brand that was acquired is just inundated with, you know, requests and, um, and like every business unit wants their input on what right, right. Exactly. That's exactly how I would characterize it. So they either buy too early and they, they like drain the brand and, and they try to scale it too quickly or they buy too late and they pay too much.
Andrea:
I guess when I say, when I see a transformative approach, it often includes like a pretty heavy focus on mergers and acquisitions kind of activity versus really getting into the, into the weeds on some of this other stuff. And I mean, it was interesting. We had a big discussion on the panel about this, about like, does everyone need to be heavily involved in social? And, you know, we have, we've got, um, there was an example given of like, uh, I think, I can't remember what it was. It was, uh, like a diuretic, um, or supplement of some kind that, uh, it was kind of like we needed to have a social handle. Well, not everyone needs to have it. Doesn't being digital, being embracing digital. Doesn't need to be having a really active, really active social handles of your own. It needs means that you're engaging in conversations in the digital environment, which hopefully is other people talking about your brand. And then you're kind of participating in that and you're gathering information from that. It's a reciprocal activity. It doesn't necessarily mean having like super creative social content all the time, or how many followers you have or any of that stuff. It's just, are you engaging in a way that's benefiting the consumer and benefiting the brand
Rob:
Or the acquisition to transform your company? Angle always seemed to me to be risky. Cause it's kind of like AOL acquiring time Warner, you know, the, this snake swallowing the elephant, you know, it's just, it's, it's, uh, it seems hard to do it that way. The other thing that's tough about it to your point on the billion dollar brands versus the niche brands and the brand ambitions. If you, if you're P and G and you acquire a hundred million dollar brand, a hundred million dollar brand, doesn't impact your bottom line that much. Right. But what if it's really only destined to be a $250 million brand? And, and the right thing to do is acquire four of them and let them grow to $250 million and that's success. And there, those companies aren't really set up to celebrate a $100 million brand becoming a $200 million brand they're, they're really, you know, their, their bonus structures and their P and L's and everything are, are, are meant to be the big, the big swings.
Andrea:
I totally, I totally agree with that, Rob. Um, I think they're not well set up for that. And I think they're also not well set up to treat each of the brands as true individuals with individual strategies and approaches. And the uniqueness of them is what make them successful in a lot of cases. And so, you know, applying a consistency sometimes in anything in, in marketing, in, um, you know, in, in branding and packaging, um, sometimes applying that kind of consistency isn't to the brand's benefit, you know, it, the individuality is what really made peak, made consumers connect with them.
Rob:
And particularly the just total focus on their set of consumers. Like they don't, they don't care about anybody else, but what do my people need and want from me? And what do they want from each other? And how can I be the conduit for this? Like you said, conversation of a community of people that are looking for the same things, maybe believe the same thing.
Andrea:
Yeah. It's like a hyper-focus on the consumer that I think is, is difficult for a really large company to maintain, to manage and maintain. But I mean, we've seen a lot of these larger brands, swallow, smaller brands, and they kind of suffocate them, um, in general. I mean, there's exceptions to that obviously, but they try to, they slow him down. I mean, that's just really kind of what it comes down to. They slow them down and that hurts that iterative process of product development and customer feedback, and really making sure that you're designing something that's super well suited to the consumer.
Rob:
The example of that, that, uh, always hit home the most for me is the rise and fall of Airwalk sneakers, right around 1990. You remember those, they lost what was special, everything that was special about them was lost in the, in the growth, in the acquisition. And they had this amazing niche market niche brand. And the second day they, they went pop culture. It was, uh, it was destroyed. I mean, there's a fine line that a lot of these, a lot of these brands walk, um, where they're they're yeah. The scale is it's really, isn't meant to be large and on some, and there's, there's also something that you said that third pillar, isn't something that we've, we don't talk that much about of accountability, where you can mean something to your audience and you can mean something to the world that that can be lost if you become part of a house of brands.
Andrea:
Yeah. I mean, I think especially today where, and I think we saw some of these trends, I don't want to say disappear, but, um, get a little bit smaller during the pandemic around sustainability, corporate social responsibility, people not wanting to buy everything from like, you know, the big companies and we're going to see are more of a resurgence of that. And that's a lot of what makes you identify with some, some of these smaller brands, like, for example, I'm a huge beauty counter fan. Like I love their stuff and glossy, those are probably two of my favorite beauty brand companies. And they're really different from one another. Um, and I love shopping on their DTC websites, but if I learned that like, um, you know, a large corporation purchased either one of those, I don't know how big of a brand advocate I'd still be, because there's something where we were identifying with these smaller brands and the upstart nature of them that ha that's part of their identity. And so I think it, it can get lost a little bit. Yeah.
Peter:
Yeah. I think it comes down to the, to the, uh, feeling of trust. Like we see that with so many large institutions in our societies right now that, that they become difficult to trust because whatever connection you can have, you know, if you, uh, I just feel like the connection that you have part of it is in that you trust their spirit, you trust what they've committed to you. And when that becomes subsumed by something else, then, then you have to sort of also understand that larger organizations motives. And, and so then you can start looking elsewhere, then you start to stray. You're like, Oh, maybe there's something, maybe there's something newer, even
Rob:
Better out there. I'm going to go look and, and you talked about the consumers are, have the power.
Andrea:
Yeah. I'm thinking I'm blanking on their name, but I bought a bunch of suitcases from that. What was that suitcase company that got like really big right before, um, away? Are they still around? They're still around. Are they still around? Yeah,
Rob:
They had exec team turnover, but, but they, they, they made it through.
Andrea:
Yeah. So I bought a couple of suitcases from them, like, I don't know, a year and a half ago. And they were having, I mean, they were overwhelmed with demand and they had production issues and I ended up waiting like two extra months for a suitcase, which from any other retailer brand, you would have been like, this is like, I'm never shopping here again. Right. But they were pretty communicative about it. And they're also a small company that got overwhelmed with demand. Like what are they going to do? You know? And, uh, and I think you would have a different level of patience for that kind of experience with, you know, if they had been purchased by someone really big like Samsonite or whatever,
Rob:
My wife and I are in the market for a new car this summer. And so we've been, we just want something that will, will not ever break down. Like the number one criteria is works a hundred percent of the time. We don't have to ever lose time bringing it into the shop. And, uh, it, it turns out that Teslas Teslas break a lot, like the number of errors per a hundred thousand Teslas or whatever is really quite high. Um, but the owners love their cars. And, and so then I learned that fact and I started going down this rabbit hole of wait a second. That's kind of interesting that the car is kind of shoddily made on some axis, which is, you know, number of errors per a hundred thousand cars. And, uh, it turns out that there's two car brands that the consumer loyalty and brand loyalty and just own her love for the car is totally out of whack with how reliable the car is. And it's the other one and cheap,
Andrea:
Oh, I had a Jeep and I loved that Jeep.
Rob:
And Jay did I read,
Andrea:
I really loved it. And it was like, I mean, in retrospect now that I've had other cars, it was not a good car, but I, but I really like loved it.
Rob:
There's something about the lifestyle of, I've got a Jeep. I am a, you know,
Andrea:
I do. I go places and do things. Yes, exactly. Yeah. That's, that's really interesting. Yeah. So I think your expectations are a lot, like once one of these brands is acquired the X customer expectations, just go way up. Cause you're like, well, you're a big part of the big company now. Like you'd have it all figured out. And I think we have a lot more tolerance and patience for, for smaller, more upstart brands. I mean, it might be an overgeneralization, but I think it's, it's often true.
Rob:
Well, let's put some, uh, like just some, uh, some examples up on the board to really understand like who's doing it well doing who
Peter:
Maybe is not succeeding at it. What are some clients or brands you think are doing a great job at being a brand today? Well, I think there are a few, I mean,
Andrea:
Um, I'm a huge, this is less about, well, I guess I would probably say, um, well away is a really interesting example of a brand who's I think figured out how to charge a lot more for suitcase. Right. And make you feel like you're part of a special club. That's what it is. I mean, ever, ever since I got the suitcase now, when I see other people with them, we're like in a club together and we can talk about our suitcase and have a love Fest about it. And that often happens at the airport. Um, you know, when we were traveling a little bit more, I think Allbirds is a really interesting example. You know, they they've been, um, they've launched a DTC, you know, they kind of got on a trend around, um, kind of more comfort, sneakers, comfort. They got on the comfort trend pretty early.
Andrea:
And, uh, and they have a, like a highly customized sort of selling process in their stores, which I think is pretty cool. Um, so I think those, those ones, they're doing a nice job. I probably would have put Nordstrom on the list before I went to the New York store. And I don't, I generally feel like they are, they have, uh, they've been sort of more of a niche department store, um, here in the, in the Northwest. I know there are other places as well, and they're certainly one of the bigger players, but, you know, they've really had this strong identity that's tied up in having, um, you know, having great customer service and having a really strong assortment plan and strategy. That's pretty on trend, but not too cutting edge, but really that customer service is huge. I mean, my mom and I shopped there a few months ago and they, like, she was kind of just getting tired.
Andrea:
They brought her a wheelchair. They, they checked all of our bags from old Navy across the street, you know, they'll, they'll just do what they it's like, no big deal. They're just, Hey, like let's keep you in the store. Let's um, make it a really good experience. I don't think it translated as well in my experience to their Manhattan, new Manhattan location. They just, I don't know. It was right after they'd opened and their sales associates just weren't, they weren't doing it the Nordstrom way, in my opinion. Um, but they, but I think they generally do a really good job of kind of having a brand that they stand for. And it seems to be performing well for them. I think their e-commerce business is doing really well right now during the pandemic. So those would be some good ones, I think in terms of knowing their consumer and scaling fast target, launch that in motion line, this is a private label brand example.
Andrea:
They launched in motion and within a year it was a billion dollar brand. I mean, that's insane. Like when have we ever heard of anything like that, target is so good at building brands and giving you a good reason to go into the store. So I think, um, you know, and that comes from really like knowing the co they are really about knowing the customer and what the customer wants and really kind of understanding that I don't know how they do it. Honestly. I never worked at target, but they have a pretty pretty well-trained and kind of keen eye toward what's going to be popular and on trend and their motion line is great. Um, you know, it's, it's, it's on par with like Lulu lemon and all the big, um, powerhouses there. So yeah. Billion dollar brand in a year. Who else can do that differently? Oh yeah. Yeah, totally. Value-driven
Rob:
They, they know their customer, if that's that's amazing. I think Sam Gagliardi was from IRI was saying that in the top, his, I might get the stat wrong, but the top hundred CPG companies, since 2010 have produced zero new billion dollar brands and target. I think the number now is six in the last or so, so in motion is one example, but they, this they've done it six, or it might, might be more than that now. Okay.
Andrea:
Yeah. Good. And I read about good and plenty recently, they were a pretty, they've become pretty big. That's another one of their private label and this data's old, but I remember from my days selling into target that we, that they were like 60% of their, um, floor space or shelf space was private label. So, I mean, they were pretty big that's part of their business model is really getting that right. Clearly.
Rob:
Yeah. I mean, you've got Kroger Kroger, um, has a strategic initiative to have 40% of gross from private capital. Uh, you know, I think I forget what Kirkland was for Costco, but it's just shy of 30% of Costco's total, total gross sales. I mean, these retailers are taking this to mean. One thing that you said right up top is they are building brands that people, their customers perceive as premium brands that they would pay a premium for, but there's still, there's still good value for the, for the consumer when they go in there and they shop. And at that, I mean that combined from, from the top in billion dollar mass market brands for shoppers at these retailers in the form of great private label, and then a lot of niche brands that are a hundred million dollar brands that are serving tribes at the bottom, it does, it does seem like the traditional mass market brands are getting squeezed from two different directions.
Andrea:
I, I think this is not a great time to be, uh, a mass market brand truly. And I totally agree with you on the, these retailers building, building brands piece. I think it's, and I think it's time. I think it's high time because if you're a retailer, I mean, I remember this from my days sitting at Amazon, I was there during kind of the very early private label. Um, some of the early private label launches and you look across your sermons and you're like, I just have a whole, like, I have this thing and I need it. And these other things have customer feedback, you know, maybe negative in one way. And you're like, can someone just build this thing? That's sitting in my assortment hole, I have a deficit in this area. And, um, and so we did, you know, we were, I was in the baby category at the time.
Andrea:
And in the in baby bedding, we were sort of missing it. Like there's a lot of really crazy looking stuff. And there were, and then there was white and there's no, there was nothing, no one's selling us anything that was kind of in the middle. Um, which was, and so we built it ourselves and it was, I mean, it was not, it was a failure actually. Amazon loves, doesn't love to talk about all their failures, but inside, there are lots of failures and they're really respected because you learn a lot. Um, but yeah, it was a huge failure. I mean, I think we ended up clearancing it all at like 70% off, we totally chose the wrong prints. Why w why I don't work in private label, but in any case, um, I can see why the retailers would do this. And also in this hyper competitive market that we're in, they need a reason for the customer choose that retailer. I think that's a big piece of it too.
Peter:
Well, you were talking about sort of major brands. It's a tough time to be a major brand. I'm thinking of all our listeners right now, who are from major brands. And, uh, what are your rays of hope for them? What are the, who are the major brands you think are doing it, doing it? Well,
Andrea:
Yeah, I think, um, well, I mean, I think a big piece of it is, well, I can share some missteps, I guess a big misstep is not understanding who your competitors are. We see this over and over and over again, you know, the traditional CPG coming in and saying, I sit next to, I had a water brand the other day say to me, I'm the number like three or four water brand in the world. So I should be number three or four on Amazon in search. And like, it does not work that way. And, and, and when he listed the other brands that he believed to be his competitors, those are not his competitors on Amazon. They just weren't. I mean, they had entirely different set of competitors. In fact, it was like vitamin waters and, you know, electrolyte powders. And that was the stuff that was showing up next to his product on, in the search results. And those, those were the competitors. So I think brands,
Peter:
Can I just ask you, because I would think that by now any executives that's in that role would, would kind of know that already, like know that there's a competitive difference. What do you think the block is? Is it, uh, uh, they just don't know the digital world and they were coming to you as it, and obviously you're good disclose anything, but like, what do you think that mindset is that stopping that awareness?
Andrea:
Well, I think in most of the organizations that we work with, the boots on the ground, like the frontline folks, like the econ manager and often the e-com director, they totally get it. I think it's a couple of things. I think it's, um, it's really having this kind of fixed view that your competitors are, who are next to you on the physical shelf and, and that's, who's going to be on the digital shelf. And that's often surprising. I think it's a lack of measurement tools quite honestly, too, that are showing them, who's sitting next to them on the digital most clients that we work with when they want to see their products on Amazon, they search for their products on Amazon, by brand, by their own brand. So they're never seeing the other brands, they're just seeing their own brand. And it's a real, it's a very common mistake. And so, um, they don't get, they don't search like, you know, ballpoint pen or space heater, or like the more generic, generic terms and to see who's coming up. So I think it's like measurement. I think it's a pretty, um, it's just, so it's such a traditional view of looking at brick and mortar and, and, um, and then just, you know, really not shopping your store.
Rob:
That's interesting. I not shopping your store. How is that possible though? Because every one of these people, especially this last year has got to have used Amazon, maybe, I don't know if I'm, if I'm a close approximation, 17 billion times over the course of the pandemic, you know, and is it just like not being self-aware on, on the behavior, you go to Amazon, you search for batteries, you search with AA batteries. You know what I mean? You don't go necessarily search for Energizer search for Duracell. Um,
Andrea:
Yeah, I think it's, I think it's the, it's, it's at the real senior leadership level. And obviously that's where a lot of the budget decisions are being made and investment decisions and strategy decisions. Um, and at the senior leadership level, I think you need to be shopping on Amazon and you need to be the shopper for your household. You need to be shopping online, you need to be shopping your category and you need to be shopping your brand in order to really understand the ecosystem, I think. Well, and so I guess that would be my suggestion for manufacturers listening would be at senior leadership levels, like make sure you're doing those things. So you can really understand what that customer experience looks like, what competitors they're looking at. Um, you know, what that, what that entire end to end experience looks like
Rob:
Don't your replacement will, is essentially the story behind that. I mean, I think, you know, we're talking about the need for generational mind shift, um, that hopefully won't take me to require a generational complete shift in people, but rather the mindset.
Andrea:
Yeah. And I don't think it's hard to get there and, and, and, you know, really get a good understanding of that customer experience. I think you need as a senior senior leader in an organization, you need to be active on social media, so you can understand how those conversations happen and you know, what they look like and the types of things that customers talk about versus maybe looking at a report of, of some of that output. So being, you know, active in it, I think that's important. I, I, you know, I think so consuming some of that media I think is probably important. And then, um, you know, really kind of going back to that brand accountability thing, um, making sure that you're understanding what customers are saying about your product mining, some of that review data, like just really kind of getting, having a good sense of that and, and building an iterative process into the product development cycle.
Andrea:
I think that's huge. We have a client who they had a personal care appliance product, and it had like three and a half stars, which is not, that's not great on it on Amazon. Um, and the, in mining, some of the customer feedback, it was because the charger that it comes with tips over really easily, it's an annoyance, right? And so they were able to redesign the charger and relaunch the product in, and they partnered with Amazon to do it. So they could kind of keep some of the, you know, um, velocity that the item had. And they were able to totally turn it around because they acted fast. They saw the feedback, they acted fast, they relaunched new and improved. Um, and that's what you see all these smaller brands doing. Like it's all, everything everything's new and improved. Like the version you're going to buy today. Isn't the version that was on the site last year. Like that's just, it's sort of, especially, I think in electronics, sort of a known thing.
Peter:
Well, Andrea, I think this conversation about how brands form their relationship with their consumer, the issue, the, you know, having conversations, the ambition of what is the ambition of your brand and what does it need to be to survive. And then ultimately accountability. I just, I love that, that setting. And, uh, and I would love to continue this conversation in other settings because it ain't going away. So thank you so much for joining us. It's so great to have you on. Thanks for having me. You guys Are thanks to Andrea for joining us. Please lob a review our way and share this episode with your colleagues. We'd love to hear from you drop me an email at peter@digitalshelfinstitute.org with any ideas and thanks as always for being part of our community.
